Oh my God....not again....

[sb1212]

So, here it is, what, 16 hrs after another mass shooting in our backyard and no commentary here (yes, I was also slow to react)?  Is it shock? Indifference? Numbness?  Too much to face?  I would have at least expected a spirited debate on the sanctity of the 2nd amendment vs banning assault type rifles (it seems the perp used an AR-556) whose primary function is to deliver as much destruction as possible in the shortest amount of time. I hold dear and exercise my right to bear arms, but I also hold sacred human life. What is wrong with this country? Why cant we figure this out?

[mustang]

"We" have raised a couple generations that do not know how to deal with defeat or disappointment.  Everyone got a trophy or a ribbon, and keeping score was/is mean or racist or........ .  Instead of dealing with  disappointment, folks are told today that it is perfectly acceptable to get the same prize win or lose.  THEN they get out into the real world and do not understand the logic of "doing my best" not earning a reward.   They have been taught that it is okay to react violently to the ones that disagreed with outcome they expected.  Add to that the current method of criminal justice and what message are the criminals getting???

[JoDoe27]

Or just an over abundance and ease of access to firearms coupled with a severe lack of mental health access or generally any effort to help those needing it and telling them to suck it up or just deal this completely and totally ignoring their very real instability, and a desire as a country to not make any sort of change because it’s too soon or not the right time all the while hoping everything will resolve itself. Because that’s been working so well for the last 100 years. There have been 5 mass shootings (general consensus is 4+ shot in once stands) this year. 6 in 2020. 2021 is really looking to get back to normal. 

[mustang]

1 hour ago, JoDoe27 said:

Or just an over abundance and ease of access to firearms ......... 

So what is the problem in Chicago or Baltimore??

 

[Prayforrain]

We’ve always had plenty of nut jobs, but we haven’t always had as many firearms as there are now. Same goes with cars. We’ve always had stupid ignorant people but before cars they would just fall off a horse or get kicked in the head, or shot by someone who is both intelligent and sane.

Now we’ve got imbeciles who think 225 is a raceway and they’re in The Fat and The Furriest, and semi-pseudo-gangsta-militia wannabes, and Boy Scout/ROTC/Hamburger Hillbillies, and depressed GTA/Roblox/Minecraft/porn and social media trolls and all the variations thereof, all of which are on prescribed or stolen and otherwise illegal meds feeling like it’s them against the world. Have we had it too easy and that’s turning us into murderers? No. That’s turned a bunch of people into entitled spoiled pussies. But not murderers. The people who are killing are deranged and fucked up because they feel totally isolated and helpless and victimized, not entitled, self-aggrandized and egocentric. And gun manufacturers are making more guns now than ever before.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Prayforrain

[JoDoe27]

38 minutes ago, mustang said:

So what is the problem in Chicago or Baltimore??

 

This is so comical to me. I wondered when it would come up but knew it was inevitable. Shocked at how quickly Chicago was mentioned. Can you tell me the gun laws in Chicago? As of today. Without looking. Would you like to have a discussion on socioeconomic levels and how we all fully know poverty leads to violence. How there’s a horrible cycle in that area and the lack of help and institutions for those people? Chicago and Baltimore are not above anything in my first comment. Please do not boil this down to a “what about Chicago.” They are not the bastion of problems with gun violence in America. It is an area that for sure is part of the problem but let’s not kid ourselves or use those two cities you named as a diversionary tactic. My original still stands; Chicago and Baltimore are not above any of the senseless violence. 

[BadBoy]

Crazy white guy with an gun kills a bunch of people.  Fanatical religious nut with a gun kills a bunch of people.  Extremist with a gun kills a bunch of people.  Depressed guy with a gun kills his entire family.  Cop is so scared that every person on the street has a gun, he shoots first, asks questions later.

There's nothing we can do,  these are random events with nothing in common, nothing to see, keep moving people, nothing to see here.

[gr8owl]

48 minutes ago, BadBoy said:

Crazy white guy with an gun kills a bunch of people.  Fanatical religious nut with a gun kills a bunch of people.  Extremist with a gun kills a bunch of people.  Depressed guy with a gun kills his entire family.  Cop is so scared that every person on the street has a gun, he shoots first, asks questions later.

There's nothing we can do,  these are random events with nothing in common, nothing to see, keep moving people, nothing to see here.

Nothing in common?  You were on a roll identifying the biggest factor, mental health (red).  Then out of nowhere the blue, which is ludicrous.  Nothing random about it.  If we take away all guns, extremely disturbed people will simply resort to clubs, machetes and the like, although the body count per incident might go down.  We need a serious look at the root causes of the type of mental illness that leads to this shit, better identification BEFORE they go off, actual treatment for those identified and practical means to limit their access to deadly weapons (but not everyone else's).  I am typically a total free speech advocate, but that only works if we teach folks how to be logical, discerning and not prone to believing any fucking stupidity some other deranged fuck posts to social media (the growth of which is in lock step with the growth in number of mass shootings btw) - yes I mean QAnon, stolen election bullshit, alien dna in vaccines, religious zealot sites, marxist groups, fascist groups and in general any sites that troll the disenfranchised, poor, disgruntled, hopeless and naive  and tells them who is responsible for their situation ........ opposing political views, religion, commies wanting to take your guns, whatever.  It is a complicated issue, but endless debates over gun control and snake oil salesmen (politicians) fanning flames of suspicion, hatred and division will NEVER make it better.  If it really matters then investment in mental health for once would be a major help.  We used to warehouse the disturbed, then we decided to just turn them out on street as homeless and in general stigmatize to point they do not seek help, no one commits them, and we still never bother to really address cause and then treat.  Or hell, maybe just a good asteroid collision and start over.

[pfunk]

Personally, I don't feel like anything significant has changed, that causes these incidents.

Unfortunately, unstable people can get, or already have, guns, and they sometimes snap, and kill others.

I suspect this will happen, no matter what.

We can't ban guns, the constitution won't allow it. 

I think, at best, if you see something, say something. If you know someone shouldn't have a gun (but does), tell the authorities.

Other than that, I don't think we can do much about this, here in the U.S.

Just my humble opinion.

 

 

[Alex Majors]

So if mental health is the issue. Tell your President to stop wasteing US tax dollars on foriegn nationals  and use the money to help US citizens. If enough do, then maybe he will use US  tax dollars on US citizens. He was elected to help his electorate. Not to help others from other countries. Once he has taken care of his people, he can look for others to help.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Alex Majors

[gr8owl]

1 hour ago, Alex Majors said:

So if mental health is the issue. Tell your President to stop wasteing US tax dollars on foriegn nationals  and use the money to help US citizens. If enough do, then maybe he will use US  tax dollars on US citizens. He was elected to help his electorate. Not to help others from other countries. Once he has taken care of his people, he can look for others to help.

Well, Your President (you do live in USA, right?) has been in office 63 days, this has been building for decades.  Last thing I want is a federal solution.  That rarely goes well.  But thanks for the pointless anti immigrant diversion that has precious little to do with mass shootings or mental health.

[Seeker5280]

These are random acts. They will happen again.

We all must face these facts.

Mental health diagnosis is the key.

Implementation is the struggle!

[Audrey Astor]

10 hours ago, mustang said:

"We" have raised a couple generations that do not know how to deal with defeat or disappointment.  Everyone got a trophy or a ribbon, and keeping score was/is mean or racist or........ .  Instead of dealing with  disappointment, folks are told today that it is perfectly acceptable to get the same prize win or lose.  THEN they get out into the real world and do not understand the logic of "doing my best" not earning a reward.   They have been taught that it is okay to react violently to the ones that disagreed with outcome they expected.  Add to that the current method of criminal justice and what message are the criminals getting???

Yes and add to that our broken mental health system...

[Audrey Astor]

On 11/22/2020 at 4:36 PM, mustang said:

I am a lifetime p411 member with 70+ okays  If that is NOT sufficient for you, there are others that will step up.  You have to do what works for you, but one size does not fit all

 

 

6 hours ago, pfunk said:

Personally, I don't feel like anything significant has changed, that causes these incidents.

Unfortunately, unstable people can get, or already have, guns, and they sometimes snap, and kill others.

I suspect this will happen, no matter what.

We can't ban guns, the constitution won't allow it. 

I think, at best, if you see something, say something. If you know someone shouldn't have a gun (but does), tell the authorities.

Other than that, I don't think we can do much about this, here in the U.S.

Just my humble opinion.

 

 

We’ve already banned certain ammo magazines.🤷‍♀️ It starts at home, and fixing the mental health system.

[Audrey Astor]

@wglide2003?

[Alex Majors]

7   

5 hours ago, gr8owl said:

Well, Your President (you do live in USA, right?) has been in office 63 days, this has been building for decades.  Last thing I want is a federal solution.  That rarely goes well.  But thanks for the pointless anti immigrant diversion that has precious little to do with mass shootings or mental health.

He is my President. That is a fact. He was first elected to Congress in 1972 and it is 2021. 44 years of that elected to office. Save the 63 day speech for someone else.  Economics 101. There is no free lunch. In order to give away something, you have to take away from something else. There is nothing anti-immigrant or anything else about it. It is just business. You say we should do more for mental health. I would agree with you. Well where should we get all the money to do this?  I merely stated an already available source of funds, that would be better off being spent to help the mentally ill of this country. The Federal government has it.  You called my idea pointless. I can't see it done locally. Cities, counties and states are hard pressed to maintain  streets, schools, water plants, prisons, trash collection, sewage, public transportation, etc. If we can take care of that many illegals in a year, why can't we  take those funds to help  that many citizens, that are  mentally ill. It certainly can't make it any worse. It might stop some of these shootings. 

[Bit Banger]

Three points in the thread:

1) US citizens should have priority for US funds(tax $s).

2) Mental health control is a slippery slope. Who defines ‘crazy’?

3) Fire arm restrictions are ineffective; outraged individuals/groups will find other means.

[gr8owl]

7 hours ago, Alex Majors said:

7   

He is my President. That is a fact. He was first elected to Congress in 1972 and it is 2021. 44 years of that elected to office. Save the 63 day speech for someone else.  Economics 101. There is no free lunch. In order to give away something, you have to take away from something else. There is nothing anti-immigrant or anything else about it. It is just business. You say we should do more for mental health. I would agree with you. Well where should we get all the money to do this?  I merely stated an already available source of funds, that would be better off being spent to help the mentally ill of this country. The Federal government has it.  You called my idea pointless. I can't see it done locally. Cities, counties and states are hard pressed to maintain  streets, schools, water plants, prisons, trash collection, sewage, public transportation, etc. If we can take care of that many illegals in a year, why can't we  take those funds to help  that many citizens, that are  mentally ill. It certainly can't make it any worse. It might stop some of these shootings. 

I called it pointless because bringing in a TOTALLY unrelated, very complicated, separate issue to justify doing nothing is a tried and true Orange Party diversion.  But to follow your logic, maybe the 10 billion spent on a stupid fucking wall that stops no one would have been better spent on mental health.  Or maybe restructuring tax code to make Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump pay more taxes than you and I do - hell more than zero!!!.  It is called prioritization.  What will be the total cost of the police response, trial, imprisonment etc. ?  Would prevention make more sense?  What does it cost to keep troops in Afghanistan in perpetuity?  How about eliminating the vice squads that spend ridiculous amounts of money on busting consenting, adult providers?  How about better yet, if everybody wants to insist on unlimited access to guns a tax on gun and ammo sales to pay for the consequences of keeping this "priviledge."  (After seeing the armed sedition/treason by "patriots" at the capital I damn sure want to keep mine btw because seems they will be needed soon.)  Colorado is getting a billion in covid slush funds.  I could go on and on and on.  "Gotta pay for it somehow" is both true and irrelevant to the point.  In a state budget of 32.5 billion and a federal budget of 4.4 trillion (in 2019 BEFORE covid and dem control) there are plenty of places to "find" the money.  The question is whether there is a will to do so.  Judging by many comments in this thread, nope, probably not.

[SixtiesDude]

OK, if we can't ban guns, then lets just ban the ammunition and gunpowder.

Or ban assault style weapons.. I'm not saying ban ALL guns. Oh hell no. But ban any and all assault type of guns. Why does anyone need them? I have never seen anyone use one for hunting, and I hunt a lot. Assault style guns were originally developed for the military and are for one purpose ... to kill people. Hence then name ASSAULT!!

Flame away. 

[BadBoy]

Nothing will change, nothing to see here, your top priority, keeping your precious guns, is safe and secure, not your children, but your much more precious guns.

[sb1212]

As a partial answer to my own question it is tempting to say that these kinds of horrific incidents are the price we pay for the right to bear arms.  I hope that is wrong, and that there is a solution that simultaneously protects our rights and our lives. 

[Mike940370]

Knowing they will get solitary confinement while waiting for the electric chair would be more of a deterrent than the liberal favorite, of the last 20 years, "ban assault weapon and high capacity magazines"

[Fenrir373]

17 hours ago, BadBoy said:

Crazy white guy with an gun kills a bunch of people.  Fanatical religious nut with a gun kills a bunch of people.  Extremist with a gun kills a bunch of people.  Depressed guy with a gun kills his entire family.  Cop is so scared that every person on the street has a gun, he shoots first, asks questions later.

There's nothing we can do,  these are random events with nothing in common, nothing to see, keep moving people, nothing to see here.

I think some of you missed the REAL common thread to all of these incidents. Those who say it's "just" a mental health problem or "just" a gun problem are ignoring the other side. It's a mental health problem AND a gun problem. As a society, we ignore and stigmatize and don't seek out mental health issues, and we leave too many people isolated, alone, and without help to overcome challenges. In addition to that, it is far too easy in the U.S. for somebody who has mental health issues to buy an assault-grade rifle or other firearms. Just addressing one side of this problem is never going to fully resolve it--we need vast improvements in dealing with mental health AND we need sweeping reforms in the way we allow access to firearms nationally (local enforcement doesn't work; a state or city with strict gun laws doesn't stop somebody from driving to the next town or state with lax regulations and buying one there). 

[Jenna_James]

Just so sad and really scary...I had to stop watching the news.

[Mike940370]

With Joey passing out money like no American will ever have to work again, I wonder why he doesn't make me and hundreds of thousands more an offer "we can't  refuse for my guns"  After all what the hell do lib tardy politicians care about spending  money?

National guard sleeps and eats in the parking garage, illegal immigrants get hotel rooms. Hmm, I wonder if any hot escorts are coming? Or better yet,cumming,

[average1]

These tragedies make me very, very sad.  There are so many angry people.....so many traumatized folks and we don't seem to be working on the root causes. As other have said, our health system, especially our Mental Health system is flawed.  Mental Health still seems like the "orphaned step-child" of our health care system.  We can't "see the wounds", so they must not be as important, which is a shame.  And there is still a ton of stigma if someone admits to a behavioral health condition, so many are hesitant to reach out for help.  And if they do ask for help, getting it can be like jumping through hoops.

In the trauma work I've done, there is a saying...."Hurt people hurt people."  Not sure of the answers, but keeping the status quo is not working.  And people are getting tired of hearing, "So sorry for this tragedy and our hearts go out to victims and their families.", especially when it is followed by zero change.

My heart is heavy today and the best I can do is to be kind to the people I encounter.  Even those I may disagree with.  Wishing everyone the best and that you process your grief in ways that are helpful to you.

[JoDoe27]

1 hour ago, BadBoy said:

Nothing will change, nothing to see here, your top priority, keeping your precious guns, is safe and secure, not your children, but your much more precious guns.

Yeah but the constitution! It’s perfect and unchanged since it’s creation tells me I can bear arms! And kids these days. Lockdown drills for active shooters should be common. We don’t want those kids to be soft. Never mind the long-standing psychological impact it may have on them by living in constant fear. We need to make them tough and fearful! We’ve never seen that play out with any other generation before now have we! /s 

I had to join in the sarcasm. Can’t do anything but laugh at this point, right? 

[Audrey Astor]

We are probably all going to have to agree to disagree....I’ve had access to guns since I was 6 years old, always respected them and others, and have never once thought about doing a crazy act.
 

May the victims RIP, and solace come to their families.

[pfunk]

2 hours ago, Audrey Astor said:

We are probably all going to have to agree to disagree....I’ve had access to guns since I was 6 years old, always respected them and others, and have never once thought about doing a crazy act.

May the victims RIP, and solace come to their families.

This is why we have the dilemma. People like you, Audrey, are the large majority of gun owners. 

It's the mentally unstable few, (like the two recent examples, and the school shooters) who mass murder, that need prevention.

I don't have a solution, but ignoring the problem, will just allow more innocents to die. 

[Bit Banger]

On 3/24/2021 at 8:05 AM, SixtiesDude said:

....

Or ban assault style weapons. I'm not saying ban ALL guns. Oh hell no. But ban any and all assault type of guns. Why does anyone need them? ...

Flame away. 

Please define ‘assault style weapons’. Does it look like a M-1 Garrand, a Springfield bolt action, a Colt 45, or a Baretta 9mm.  How about a bayonet or saber?

I would remind you that when the 2nd Amendment was written, common citizens had the highest tech available.

Not looking to flame. Just an open discussion.