You can take my COVID vaccine if I don't.

[LoneRebel-Banned]

I hope we still have the freedom to agree to disagree. 

 

Most people attribute vaccines to getting rid of polio.. Wrong!  Even the CDC website says that polio was mostly eradicated due to improvements to sanitation.

(See Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and The Forgotten History by Suzanne Humphries MD  for more info)

Being former military I've had more vaccines than maybe any of you.  Even when I didnt need them. 

These vaccines are produced by corporations that are on the stock market, which means they are legally required to profit.

For any of you that avoid GMO food, realize this is the first GMO 'vaccine' ever.  IF you get it, you are a guinea pig because they arent 100% sure how it will affect your body now or 10 years from now.

If you get the vaccine, you still have to wear a mask and social distance because you could still be a carrier of covid.

If you get the vaccine you could still die.

I am listening to the experts, the $$$ experts, that demanded congress release them from ALL liability for anything caused by the vaccine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gr8owl]

On 2/8/2021 at 8:00 AM, Strange_Ice said:

A part of my reservations is that no matter how you look at it, it is still UNNATURAL. Eventually mother nature is always going to find a way to equal things out and there will just be another pandemic/disaster that will kill millions. And all of these "advancements" technically isnt makeing us stronger but rather weaker as a human race causing us to become more and more reliant on "medications" instead of letting our bodies NATURALLY adapt to things. Yes it might be better for US but the next generation or the on after that is the ones who pay for it all and get weaker over time.

Condoms are not natural - should we all go without and hope natural immunity kicks in to stop syphilis?  Planes, trains, computers, television, the internet, gas furnaces, refrigerators, freezers and on and on are not natural.  Life wearing animal skins and hiding from predators in a cave is natural.  Does that somehow make it great?  Vaccines have controlled measles, polio (get to that in a minute!!), small pox, whooping cough, tetanus, mumps and many more previously deadly and debilitating diseases.  Medical advances including vaccines have lead to tremendous improvement in the quality of life and the length as well.  I will gladly take that over "natural" outcomes that were frequently tragic.

 

On 2/8/2021 at 8:41 PM, LoneRebel said:

I hope we still have the freedom to agree to disagree. 

 

Most people attribute vaccines to getting rid of polio.. Wrong!  Even the CDC website says that polio was mostly eradicated due to improvements to sanitation.

(See Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and The Forgotten History by Suzanne Humphries MD  for more info)

Being former military I've had more vaccines than maybe any of you.  Even when I didnt need them. 

These vaccines are produced by corporations that are on the stock market, which means they are legally required to profit.

For any of you that avoid GMO food, realize this is the first GMO 'vaccine' ever.  IF you get it, you are a guinea pig because they arent 100% sure how it will affect your body now or 10 years from now.

If you get the vaccine, you still have to wear a mask and social distance because you could still be a carrier of covid.

If you get the vaccine you could still die.

I am listening to the experts, the $$$ experts, that demanded congress release them from ALL liability for anything caused by the vaccine. 

 

She is one of the most vocal anti-vaxers out there and practically speaking a conspiracy theorist.  The book and her many "teachings" are rejected as nonsense by the majority of medical scientists.  And yes, it WAS the vaccines (both live and dead virus versions) that essentially brought an end to polio in this country and most countries in the world - with the exception of the rabidly anti-vax ones.

And general comment re all:

Anyone that does not wish to take the vaccine is free to so choose for whatever reason.  But as with most important issues of the day the spread of conspiracy theories and baseless fear and uncertainty among everyone else is slowly eating away the fabric of the country.  Those behind much of it laugh in glee.

[Strange_Ice]

7 hours ago, gr8owl said:

Condoms are not natural - should we all go without and hope natural immunity kicks in to stop syphilis?  Planes, trains, computers, television, the internet, gas furnaces, refrigerators, freezers and on and on are not natural.  Life wearing animal skins and hiding from predators in a cave is natural.  Does that somehow make it great?  Vaccines have controlled measles, polio (get to that in a minute!!), small pox, whooping cough, tetanus, mumps and many more previously deadly and debilitating diseases.  Medical advances including vaccines have lead to tremendous improvement in the quality of life and the length as well.  I will gladly take that over "natural" outcomes that were frequently tragic.

 

She is one of the most vocal anti-vaxers out there and practically speaking a conspiracy theorist.  The book and her many "teachings" are rejected as nonsense by the majority of medical scientists.  And yes, it WAS the vaccines (both live and dead virus versions) that essentially brought an end to polio in this country and most countries in the world - with the exception of the rabidly anti-vax ones.

And general comment re all:

Anyone that does not wish to take the vaccine is free to so choose for whatever reason.  But as with most important issues of the day the spread of conspiracy theories and baseless fear and uncertainty among everyone else is slowly eating away the fabric of the country.  Those behind much of it laugh in glee.

Anddd once again just to be an ass you take the conversation away from the actual point of everything. By bringing in condoms, and EVERY advancement you possibly could, you show that the point of the conversation that others were having just completely missed you and since you didn't have anythin actually relevant to bring to the conversation about just the topic at hand of natural or scientific/ lav created immunity you had to bring up a bunch of unrelated and irrelevant things about technology and transportation and ppe like condoms, and then like usual you couldnt help bringing in something about some "conspiracy theorist"... you do know it's only a conspiracy theory until it is eventually proven to be right in some form or another even if it's in the ball park there has been a good number of what people called theories that turned out to be close to what was really going on..... and more to the point of the actual conversation for the record I'm not completely against vaccinations, I get the flu shot every year ive had all the normal vaccinations everyone else has, I just point out other view points of them to start REAL conversations such as how everyone else was bringing in different views and explaining their side for or against it without throwing mud in the water..

[gr8owl]

2 hours ago, Strange_Ice said:

Anddd once again just to be an ass you take the conversation away from the actual point of everything. By bringing in condoms, and EVERY advancement you possibly could, you show that the point of the conversation that others were having just completely missed you and since you didn't have anythin actually relevant to bring to the conversation about just the topic at hand of natural or scientific/ lav created immunity you had to bring up a bunch of unrelated and irrelevant things about technology and transportation and ppe like condoms, and then like usual you couldnt help bringing in something about some "conspiracy theorist"... you do know it's only a conspiracy theory until it is eventually proven to be right in some form or another even if it's in the ball park there has been a good number of what people called theories that turned out to be close to what was really going on..... and more to the point of the actual conversation for the record I'm not completely against vaccinations, I get the flu shot every year ive had all the normal vaccinations everyone else has, I just point out other view points of them to start REAL conversations such as how everyone else was bringing in different views and explaining their side for or against it without throwing mud in the water..

You are the one that tried to make the argument that you have reservations because the vaccine is not natural and will weaken the overall human race's strength against infections in the future.  How precisely is a response that argues that "unnatural" is not bad taking the conversation anywhere you did not already take it? How is questioning an opinion you state in a public forum amount to being an ass?  You do not like when I disagree with you - fair enough, do a better job of supporting your opinion.  Calling me an ass does nothing - been called much worse, don't care.  And then you veer off to say you get the flu vaccine and "all the others everyone else has" to further confuse the issue.  Why do you not have reservations about ALL vaccines - all are just as "unnatural" as the covid ones.  My comments were in direct response to your statements.  The fact that I do not agree with you does not make me be an "ass".  The conspiracy reference was to the other post (clearly quoted, clearly not in reference to your statement) about a well known anti-vaxxer and her book and debunked polio theories.  The vast majority of such anti-vax arguments and advocates are EXACTLY what is meant by conspiracy theories.  In case you have not noticed almost half a million people have died in this country from covid19.  The only realistic chance we have at knocking down this disease and getting back to semi normal is via vaccines.  Yet there is a never ending shrill contingent trying to convince people not to get vaccinated based upon hearsay, myth, anti-vax conspiracy and political bs to support a buffoon's narrative.  It gets very, very tiring and to the extent it encourages many people not to get vaccinated in effects us all and prolongs closures, shut downs, etc.  Nonetheless, I stick to the issue and refrained from calling you names.  Kindly do the same.

[Strange_Ice]

16 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

You are the one that tried to make the argument that you have reservations because the vaccine is not natural and will weaken the overall human race's strength against infections in the future.  How precisely is a response that argues that "unnatural" is not bad taking the conversation anywhere you did not already take it? How is questioning an opinion you state in a public forum amount to being an ass?  You do not like when I disagree with you - fair enough, do a better job of supporting your opinion.  Calling me an ass does nothing - been called much worse, don't care.  And then you veer off to say you get the flu vaccine and "all the others everyone else has" to further confuse the issue.  Why do you not have reservations about ALL vaccines - all are just as "unnatural" as the covid ones.  My comments were in direct response to your statements.  The fact that I do not agree with you does not make me be an "ass".  The conspiracy reference was to the other post (clearly quoted, clearly not in reference to your statement) about a well known anti-vaxxer and her book and debunked polio theories.  The vast majority of such anti-vax arguments and advocates are EXACTLY what is meant by conspiracy theories.  In case you have not noticed almost half a million people have died in this country from covid19.  The only realistic chance we have at knocking down this disease and getting back to semi normal is via vaccines.  Yet there is a never ending shrill contingent trying to convince people not to get vaccinated based upon hearsay, myth, anti-vax conspiracy and political bs to support a buffoon's narrative.  It gets very, very tiring and to the extent it encourages many people not to get vaccinated in effects us all and prolongs closures, shut downs, etc.  Nonetheless, I stick to the issue and refrained from calling you names.  Kindly do the same.

I'm fine with different opinions what I found off topic was bringing up all the other issues of "unnatural" progress in other areas unrelated to the human body. But to keep to an actual conversation my reservations are NOT with the vaccine itself, my reservations are towards the unknown of how knew the vaccine is and how little time it actually took to developed it compared to what has been said to how long it SHOULD take to do so properly. And for the unrelated issue about conspiracy theories/theorists, someone it seems to be a habit that you seem to always find a way to try and discredit someone by throwing that out there as much as you can instead of just countering without the discrimination of conspiracies. As I have seen and appreciated other comments such as a couple of others that broke things down with valid "scientific" facts and points yours went in another direction to a degree

[gr8owl]

2 hours ago, Strange_Ice said:

 

2 hours ago, Strange_Ice said:

I'm fine with different opinions what I found off topic was bringing up all the other issues of "unnatural" progress in other areas unrelated to the human body. But to keep to an actual conversation my reservations are NOT with the vaccine itself, my reservations are towards the unknown of how knew the vaccine is and how little time it actually took to developed it compared to what has been said to how long it SHOULD take to do so properly. And for the unrelated issue about conspiracy theories/theorists, someone it seems to be a habit that you seem to always find a way to try and discredit someone by throwing that out there as much as you can instead of just countering without the discrimination of conspiracies. As I have seen and appreciated other comments such as a couple of others that broke things down with valid "scientific" facts and points yours went in another direction to a degree

But that is totally not what you stated in the post i responded to.  Had you done so, we could indeed have had an intelligent conversation because this concern is both understandable and valid.  The answer to this question is as follows.  The two approved vaccines - Pfizer and Moderna - indeed use a new approach to vaccines, that of messenger rna.  It is true these are the first vaccines approved for use that use this methodology.  But the method itself has been being tested and reviewed in the scientific community for over a decade.  The threat from covid, the urgency of the need for a vaccine and the potential for having one that was faster to develop and more effective than conventional vaccine approaches led the two groups to aggressively pursue this new methodology.  Literally thousands of people were injected with either the vaccine or a control placebo during trials that match what would be done as standard practice for any new vaccine.  Those trials demonstrated they were effective and at least in the short term safe.  The only thing done out of the normal was to pursue emergency use authorization instead of waiting for the typical months to years long review by the bureaucracy.  If you would prefer to wait that long I understand the concern and simply believe the urgency of the situation and the effect on our country and the deaths require that we move forward with our best bet of containing and beating.  I would further note that the next vaccines likely to be approved largely use more conventional dead virus carriers etc. - such as the Johnson and Johnson vaccine (which in my opinion has MUCH larger concerns) so perhaps you would feel better about that "conventional" vaccine.  The point is, do not use concerns over one method to try to spread reluctance toward ALL the vaccines that are coming.  But again, none of them are "natural", which in fact was your original complaint.  Lastly on conspiracy theories - I call a kumquat a kumquat.  When widespread concern over a product, process, situation, virus or election causes widespread fear and uncertainty (FUD as appropriately banned in the rules here) WITHOUT documented factual basis for the position being spread, that IS a conspiracy theory and the book and author i referred to is one in spades.

[Strange_Ice]

46 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

But that is totally not what you stated in the post i responded to.  Had you done so, we could indeed have had an intelligent conversation because this concern is both understandable and valid.  The answer to this question is as follows.  The two approved vaccines - Pfizer and Moderna - indeed use a new approach to vaccines, that of messenger rna.  It is true these are the first vaccines approved for use that use this methodology.  But the method itself has been being tested and reviewed in the scientific community for over a decade.  The threat from covid, the urgency of the need for a vaccine and the potential for having one that was faster to develop and more effective than conventional vaccine approaches led the two groups to aggressively pursue this new methodology.  Literally thousands of people were injected with either the vaccine or a control placebo during trials that match what would be done as standard practice for any new vaccine.  Those trials demonstrated they were effective and at least in the short term safe.  The only thing done out of the normal was to pursue emergency use authorization instead of waiting for the typical months to years long review by the bureaucracy.  If you would prefer to wait that long I understand the concern and simply believe the urgency of the situation and the effect on our country and the deaths require that we move forward with our best bet of containing and beating.  I would further note that the next vaccines likely to be approved largely use more conventional dead virus carriers etc. - such as the Johnson and Johnson vaccine (which in my opinion has MUCH larger concerns) so perhaps you would feel better about that "conventional" vaccine.  The point is, do not use concerns over one method to try to spread reluctance toward ALL the vaccines that are coming.  But again, none of them are "natural", which in fact was your original complaint.  Lastly on conspiracy theories - I call a kumquat a kumquat.  When widespread concern over a product, process, situation, virus or election causes widespread fear and uncertainty (FUD as appropriately banned in the rules here) WITHOUT documented factual basis for the position being spread, that IS a conspiracy theory and the book and author i referred to is one in spades.

I think leyla Scott did a much better explanation of the science of what you are saying and this post was actually a better post towards a good educational counter towards my less educated opinion and views then the first. And based on both of your explanations I would also lean towards the "newer" method myself but would still prefer to wait at least a few years to the longer effects first rather then just rushing to jump on the wagon so eagerly like everyone else. Especially since I DONT know the science of any of it I would rather my decision be made from a better ground I can see from rather then a blind act of obedience because it's what the "experts" are saying or the rest of society. Thank you for redirecting your response,  I tried to clarify my position a little better for you as I had a feeling it wasn't clear based on the responses and for that I apologize for the defensiveness.

[JoDoe27]

4 hours ago, gr8owl said:

You are the one that tried to make the argument that you have reservations because the vaccine is not natural and will weaken the overall human race's strength against infections in the future.  How precisely is a response that argues that "unnatural" is not bad taking the conversation anywhere you did not already take it? How is questioning an opinion you state in a public forum amount to being an ass?  You do not like when I disagree with you - fair enough, do a better job of supporting your opinion.  Calling me an ass does nothing - been called much worse, don't care.  And then you veer off to say you get the flu vaccine and "all the others everyone else has" to further confuse the issue.  Why do you not have reservations about ALL vaccines - all are just as "unnatural" as the covid ones.  My comments were in direct response to your statements.  The fact that I do not agree with you does not make me be an "ass".  The conspiracy reference was to the other post (clearly quoted, clearly not in reference to your statement) about a well known anti-vaxxer and her book and debunked polio theories.  The vast majority of such anti-vax arguments and advocates are EXACTLY what is meant by conspiracy theories.  In case you have not noticed almost half a million people have died in this country from covid19.  The only realistic chance we have at knocking down this disease and getting back to semi normal is via vaccines.  Yet there is a never ending shrill contingent trying to convince people not to get vaccinated based upon hearsay, myth, anti-vax conspiracy and political bs to support a buffoon's narrative.  It gets very, very tiring and to the extent it encourages many people not to get vaccinated in effects us all and prolongs closures, shut downs, etc.  Nonetheless, I stick to the issue and refrained from calling you names.  Kindly do the same.

Bro! What’s wrong with kumquats?? They’re just an innocent bystander in all this! 

I think the only thing you left out was the money aspect. Typically companies also wait in development to see if the end result will be profitable before going further. That barrier was essentially removed with Project Warp Speed. Pfizer didn’t take the money BUT received a massive government contract for their antivirus if I remember correctly. 

[gr8owl]

3 hours ago, JoDoe27 said:

Bro! What’s wrong with kumquats?? They’re just an innocent bystander in all this! 

I think the only thing you left out was the money aspect. Typically companies also wait in development to see if the end result will be profitable before going further. That barrier was essentially removed with Project Warp Speed. Pfizer didn’t take the money BUT received a massive government contract for their antivirus if I remember correctly. 

Nothing wrong with kumquats - they are a great search marker for future use lol. 

Yes, Pfizer took no money up front, but had a billion $$ or two contract for delivery of 50 million doses.  Unfortunately their offer to purchase more was turned down by Orange Delight so it will be a while before we get more from them than the original commitment.  Moderna as I understand and J&J took the up front money as did one or two that kinda fizzled.

[ilovewomen]

3 hours ago, gr8owl said:

Nothing wrong with kumquats - they are a great search marker for future use lol. 

Yes, Pfizer took no money up front, but had a billion $$ or two contract for delivery of 50 million doses.  Unfortunately their offer to purchase more was turned down by Orange Delight so it will be a while before we get more from them than the original commitment.  Moderna as I understand and J&J took the up front money as did one or two that kinda fizzled.

I read a few weeks ago where Trump actually cancelled an order for approximately 300 million doses from Pfizer saying the additional doses weren’t needed as enough doses had already been ordered.

[Maclovin]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:23 AM, Strange_Ice said:

Ahh but vaccines ARE unnatural as you pointed out with the native americans  the NATURAL way is to get sick or be exposed to something and overcome it. With that your body naturally develops it's own defenses to get stronger. It's something a lot of us humans have forgotten call natural selection where only the strong survive and thus when you do YOU produce a stronger offspring that will have a better chance of survival when THEY are exposed to it. We are too caught up on our own survival that we dont think about how weak it is causing our next generations. Think about how many people rely on simple medicine. Think about how fit and healthy more ancient civilizations where such as the Spartans, the Norse (vikings) I would be my life that if you put our best "warriors" (military, boxers, mma fighters) with all of the enhancements they take and how fit they are and I bet they still wouldn't stand up to even an average warrior from then. And as far as their life expectancy, it was far lower then now partially do to the "warrior" nature back then most people died from combat because everyone fought all across the land constantly, it was a constant battle of taking what you wanted and defending your honor/family.... that's just my thoughts, and in part the devils advocate in me looking at a different angle from "everyone else". But does it not raise a decent conversation from a new perspective if you actually think about it.  And there is nothing NATURAL about creating/developing something in a lab and shooting it into your body btw.... so you can't say the science of vaccines is natural at all

 

I'll bet the Native American's would have vibed with smallpox, et al, vaccines when Europeans arrived.

[sparkey600]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:23 AM, Strange_Ice said:

Ahh but vaccines ARE unnatural as you pointed out with the native americans  the NATURAL way is to get sick or be exposed to something and overcome it. With that your body naturally develops it's own defenses to get stronger. It's something a lot of us humans have forgotten call natural selection where only the strong survive and thus when you do YOU produce a stronger offspring that will have a better chance of survival when THEY are exposed to it. We are too caught up on our own survival that we dont think about how weak it is causing our next generations. Think about how many people rely on simple medicine. Think about how fit and healthy more ancient civilizations where such as the Spartans, the Norse (vikings) I would be my life that if you put our best "warriors" (military, boxers, mma fighters) with all of the enhancements they take and how fit they are and I bet they still wouldn't stand up to even an average warrior from then. And as far as their life expectancy, it was far lower then now partially do to the "warrior" nature back then most people died from combat because everyone fought all across the land constantly, it was a constant battle of taking what you wanted and defending your honor/family.... that's just my thoughts, and in part the devils advocate in me looking at a different angle from "everyone else". But does it not raise a decent conversation from a new perspective if you actually think about it.  And there is nothing NATURAL about creating/developing something in a lab and shooting it into your body btw.... so you can't say the science of vaccines is natural at all

OK I agree.

I'll take your COVID vaccine.

Thanks!

[Mandrewthe4th]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:48 AM, Strange_Ice said:

I'm fine with different opinions what I found off topic was bringing up all the other issues of "unnatural" progress in other areas unrelated to the human body. But to keep to an actual conversation my reservations are NOT with the vaccine itself, my reservations are towards the unknown of how knew the vaccine is and how little time it actually took to developed it compared to what has been said to how long it SHOULD take to do so properly. And for the unrelated issue about conspiracy theories/theorists, someone it seems to be a habit that you seem to always find a way to try and discredit someone by throwing that out there as much as you can instead of just countering without the discrimination of conspiracies. As I have seen and appreciated other comments such as a couple of others that broke things down with valid "scientific" facts and points yours went in another direction to a degree

Ok champ, since your complaint was that the vaccine was developed too quickly how long should it have taken? It's incredibly easy to whine; but can you support your complaints?

Hell, I won't even ask you to link any sort of actual studies (mainly because I highly doubt you've ever looked them up).  You can just provide your personal credentials showing why your distrust of the vaccine should be taken seriously.  

Its so easy for people to whine and parrot what they hear on Newsmax.  A lot harder to put effort in yourself.

[Admiral C]

Some interesting takes on this subject. Here is mine. Before any vaccine of drug in the US can be marketed, it must first be proven "safe and effective". It must be shown to be safe short and long term , proven effective and for how long. This is done in  3 phase clinical trials: Phase One-Lab; Phase Two-Animal trials; Phase Three -Human Trials. It takes between 5 and 10 years to complete these trials and prove the candidate "safe and effective". Most candidate vaccines\drugs fail. Have any ever been approved, but later found to be NOT safe or effective and discontinued? Many. Now come the CV-19 vaccines. New disease, new vaccine, new KIND of vaccine. Whipped up, whipped out, deployed in less than a year. Rushed Phase 1 trials. NO Phase 2 animals tests. Straight to Phase 3 human tests , mostly in out if the way places like obscure parts of Africa ,Peru, etc. Immediately approved "for emergency use" by the FDA ( but NOT FULLY APPROVED). Nevertheless, the FDA and CDC claim it is "safe and effective". That is just what that is ...a claim....not backed by the usually required evidence. Indeed the ONLY evidence that it is "safe" is the fact that it does not kill or seriously injure most people immediately. That it does not do so in the long term, is not even really a "claim", it is a "hope" as no long term studies have been done on it whatsoever, in animals OR people. ( Just for those who "keep score" other mRNA vaccines HAVE been tested in the past...ALL failed). Now let's talk about "effective". Yes, the vaccines appear to 92(+)% effective in causing the production of the intended proteins, but again, SCIENCE rears it's ugly head. That demonstrates exactly ZERO% efficacy.  You see, in normal Phase 2 animal studies ( skipped here), after vaccination, the subjects are "challenged" with the pathogen. If they get sick...it is not effective. They do not HAVE the pathogen isolated and grown in a lab to challenge the (human) subjects with, which is why they are using the mRNA method in the first place. Instead, they send the subjects out into their lives, masks and all, and see if they get sick. Apparently, 90+- do NOT contract CV-19. So it works, right? Wrong. In the US there have been 29 million cases of the disease out of 331  million UN-VACCINATED  people. Do the math and tell me where the evidence is that the vaccine prevented that 92 (+)% from getting the bug?......about the same % of UN-VACCINATED people who did not get sick. People say, "I believe the science".  Science is the study and examination of EVIDENCE and there is NO evidence that the vaccines are safe OR effective. Just that claim.( Which I reiterate has been made MANY times about TRADITIONAL products, FULLY tested and  mass marketed, but later found to be FALSE and the products  DROPPED.) None of this is "conspiracy theory"......just medical history and, I dare say, OBVIOUS logic. You want to trust them, believe your life is important to them, and get the vaccine, by all means go for it. HOWEVER, UNDERSTAND that you are enrolling in a voluntary CLINICAL TRIAL, of the ONLY product EVER mass deployed WITHOUT a fraction of the usual testing. As for me and my house, we will wait until the results of the "long term study" being done in the mass population are in before we decide.

[JoDoe27]

8 hours ago, Admiral C said:

Some interesting takes on this subject. Here is mine. Before any vaccine of drug in the US can be marketed, it must first be proven "safe and effective". It must be shown to be safe short and long term , proven effective and for how long. This is done in  3 phase clinical trials: Phase One-Lab; Phase Two-Animal trials; Phase Three -Human Trials. It takes between 5 and 10 years to complete these trials and prove the candidate "safe and effective". Most candidate vaccines\drugs fail. Have any ever been approved, but later found to be NOT safe or effective and discontinued? Many. Now come the CV-19 vaccines. New disease, new vaccine, new KIND of vaccine. Whipped up, whipped out, deployed in less than a year. Rushed Phase 1 trials. NO Phase 2 animals tests. Straight to Phase 3 human tests , mostly in out if the way places like obscure parts of Africa ,Peru, etc. Immediately approved "for emergency use" by the FDA ( but NOT FULLY APPROVED). Nevertheless, the FDA and CDC claim it is "safe and effective". That is just what that is ...a claim....not backed by the usually required evidence. Indeed the ONLY evidence that it is "safe" is the fact that it does not kill or seriously injure most people immediately. That it does not do so in the long term, is not even really a "claim", it is a "hope" as no long term studies have been done on it whatsoever, in animals OR people. ( Just for those who "keep score" other mRNA vaccines HAVE been tested in the past...ALL failed). Now let's talk about "effective". Yes, the vaccines appear to 92(+)% effective in causing the production of the intended proteins, but again, SCIENCE rears it's ugly head. That demonstrates exactly ZERO% efficacy.  You see, in normal Phase 2 animal studies ( skipped here), after vaccination, the subjects are "challenged" with the pathogen. If they get sick...it is not effective. They do not HAVE the pathogen isolated and grown in a lab to challenge the (human) subjects with, which is why they are using the mRNA method in the first place. Instead, they send the subjects out into their lives, masks and all, and see if they get sick. Apparently, 90+- do NOT contract CV-19. So it works, right? Wrong. In the US there have been 29 million cases of the disease out of 331  million UN-VACCINATED  people. Do the math and tell me where the evidence is that the vaccine prevented that 92 (+)% from getting the bug?......about the same % of UN-VACCINATED people who did not get sick. People say, "I believe the science".  Science is the study and examination of EVIDENCE and there is NO evidence that the vaccines are safe OR effective. Just that claim.( Which I reiterate has been made MANY times about TRADITIONAL products, FULLY tested and  mass marketed, but later found to be FALSE and the products  DROPPED.) None of this is "conspiracy theory"......just medical history and, I dare say, OBVIOUS logic. You want to trust them, believe your life is important to them, and get the vaccine, by all means go for it. HOWEVER, UNDERSTAND that you are enrolling in a voluntary CLINICAL TRIAL, of the ONLY product EVER mass deployed WITHOUT a fraction of the usual testing. As for me and my house, we will wait until the results of the "long term study" being done in the mass population are in before we decide.

Actually they weren’t skipped and the biggest difference with the timing is the phases ran concurrently versus sequentially. You can skip the vaccine, wait until better results are in (my mom and several of her siblings are waiting), or do whatever but please stop spreading misinformation. I’m not even saying your concerns aren’t valid because they are and that’s fine, but there’s way too much information out there that explains exactly how things progressed to this point to think otherwise. 

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9792931264

[Admiral C]

2 hours ago, JoDoe27 said:

Actually they weren’t skipped and the biggest difference with the timing is the phases ran concurrently versus sequentially. You can skip the vaccine, wait until better results are in (my mom and several of her siblings are waiting), or do whatever but please stop spreading misinformation. I’m not even saying your concerns aren’t valid because they are and that’s fine, but there’s way too much information out there that explains exactly how things progressed to this point to think otherwise. 

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9792931264

I appreciate your comments about not invalidating my concerns, However, saying I am spreading misinformation is inaccurate. First, your linked article is aimed to debunk false social media posts which state that  "animal trials were skipped BECAUSE"......followed by a (conspiracy) theory. I did not float any "because".  I would further point out from both the article and your comment, they claim they tested it on animals WHILE  concurrently testing it on people and that qualifies as skipping animal testing to me. 

[JoDoe27]

12 minutes ago, Admiral C said:

I appreciate your comments about not invalidating my concerns, However, saying I am spreading misinformation is inaccurate. First, your linked article is aimed to debunk false social media posts which state that  "animal trials were skipped BECAUSE"......followed by a (conspiracy) theory. I did not float any "because".  I would further point out from both the article and your comment, they claim they tested it on animals WHILE  concurrently testing it on people and that qualifies as skipping animal testing to me. 

I still feel as though you overlook so much to arrive at your conclusion. Either way, we both agree you have to do what’s best for you and yours. 0 judgment from on that front. Good luck out there.  

[LoneRebel-Banned]

On 2/9/2021 at 10:24 PM, gr8owl said:

She is one of the most vocal anti-vaxers out there and practically speaking a conspiracy theorist.  The book and her many "teachings" are rejected as nonsense by the majority of medical scientists.  And yes, it WAS the vaccines (both live and dead virus versions) that essentially brought an end to polio in this country and most countries in the world - with the exception of the rabidly anti-vax ones.

And general comment re all:

Anyone that does not wish to take the vaccine is free to so choose for whatever reason.  But as with most important issues of the day the spread of conspiracy theories and baseless fear and uncertainty among everyone else is slowly eating away the fabric of the country.  Those behind much of it laugh in glee.

NON Science: Labeling someone a conspiracy theorist to discredit any and all research they have performed. 

So I'll just assume you either work for the CIA, or you own stocks in big pharma.

Your 5 - 10 minute google search on her can in no way compete with her years of research. AND it is not just her research; if you actually TAKE the TIME and look at all the pubmed links and reference material she provides, there are many other doctors that performed the research.

Many of you dont have the time or interest in doing any research and simply trust the media because you believe they are doing the research for you.  But while watching any main stream media outlet what commercials are you inundated with?  The media is OWNED/Controlled by who pays the bills.. and thats Big Pharma.  And if you think the media polices itself, watch this:

INVESTIGATIVE journalism is now dead!   They are all nothing more than cheerleaders reading from a shared script.

This nation used to believe in free speech, but mainstream media and big tech are preventing all debate on vaccines. Why do you think that is?  Is their position soo weak they cannot stand up to us anti-vaxxers publicly??

And doctors that dont do what they are told lose their license.

So if youre gonna label me as a conspiracy theorist I am gonna label you as a coincidence theorist.

its just a coincidence that HIGH DOSE vitamin C kills all viruses.  And its just a coincidence that Wuhan got 50 tons of vitamin C shipped to it in early 2020.

And lastly,  WHY did big pharma demand that congress release them from ALL liability to the vaccines??

WHY DID big pharma DEMAND that congress RELEASE them from ALL LIABILITY to the vaccines??

IF the vaccines are proven safe then that seems like a waste of $$ and lobbying.

And for those of you that enjoy conspiracy theories; WHY is the federal government and the State government of Georgia OK with huge stone structures that advocate mass genocide??!!  Popularly known as the Georgia Genocide Stones.. oops.. I mean the Georgia Guide Stones.

...Back to your regularly scheduled big pharma brain washing commercials

On 3/4/2021 at 8:19 PM, Phil-anderer said:

WOW.  Guess what, doctors aren't being told any of that bullshit.  I know - I am one.

Now I'm going to have to look up this stupid GA structures just so I can really grasp how crazy you are.  You owe me 5 minutes of time.

Of course you arent being told what cures covid:   

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:35 PM, gr8owl said:

Thank you for proving my point so eloquently

I dont see how I proved your point at all.

And since it appears the mods are editing my comments there's not much point in wasting my time, but here's 6 more videos for you to  ponder assuming the mods dont cut them out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YZ1dW8JBiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnl_euYq8yY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_aYNT1KNA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0LLX0sgwAU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

 

[Admiral C]

On 2/26/2021 at 1:38 PM, ilovewomen said:

I had an office visit wit my doctor yesterday and we discussed reactions to the shot as I was a little nauseated the day after my first shot (I get the 2nd one a week from Monday).

He said that 99% of the people who have a reaction to the first shot had Covid sometime before the shot.

My wife got her 2nd shit yesterday...major reaction last night and today. But it will be temporary and it is a whole better than actually getting Covid.

I have to say, your post confused the hell out of me, no disrespect.  You had a reaction of nausea...check. Your Dr. said 99% of people who have a reaction have had CV-19....check. Your wife had a major reaction...check. You conclude at least the reactions are temporary and are better than getting CV-19...that's where I am confused. Based on you and your wife's reactions and what your Dr. said, it sounds like you both already HAD CV-19, and apparently did not even know it. It sounds like the reaction to the vax is WORSE than when you got CV-19 and (apparently) did not even know. What am I missing here?

 

[Kaduk]

The Quack Scale lists Predatory Health Practitioners

Our latest quacks on the list are Zach Bush MD, Dr. Suzanne Humphries, Dr. Edgar Suter, Dr. Sherrill Sellmann, Dr. Stella Immanuel, Roby Mitchell (Dr. Fitt), Kerri Rivera, Dr. Joseph Mercola, Kelly Brogan, Dr. Christiane Northrup, Dr. Scott Atlas, and Dr. Judy Mikowitz.

[ilovewomen]

12 hours ago, Admiral C said:

I have to say, your post confused the hell out of me, no disrespect.  You had a reaction of nausea...check. Your Dr. said 99% of people who have a reaction have had CV-19....check. Your wife had a major reaction...check. You conclude at least the reactions are temporary and are better than getting CV-19...that's where I am confused. Based on you and your wife's reactions and what your Dr. said, it sounds like you both already HAD CV-19, and apparently did not even know it. It sounds like the reaction to the vax is WORSE than when you got CV-19 and (apparently) did not even know. What am I missing here?

 

Admiral, I tested positive for Covid on December 8th.  I’m still dealing with issues caused by Covid. I did post this in another thread.

My Covid:  I had a fever between 99.5 to 103 nonstop for 2 1/2 weeks, Covid pneumonia which is finally going away 3 months later, nausea for about 2 weeks, all food tasted like it was heavily salted for a couple weeks, uncontrollable bloody nose that put me in the hospital for 2 nights as well as having my nasal passages packed for 2 weeks...doctors estimate I lost about 2 pints of blood from that. White blood cell count was over 30,000 (Max should be 11,000), red blood cell count dropped to half of minimum. Continuous chills, even today. I almost forgot about the extreme fatigue that I am starting to get over. Remember this is 3 months after getting the Covid.

I haven’t been contagious since before Christmas, but the Covid just keeps in giving. Needless to say, my Covid experience has not been good but it’s been better than others.

So my minor nausea was nothing compared to went I’ve gone through with Covid.

My wife on the other hand tested negative for Covid after I tested positive, but still had a reaction to the vaccine both times....but they were temporary reactions.

So the reactions to the vaccine are minimal compared to the actual Covid itself.

[gr8owl]

On 2/27/2021 at 11:13 PM, LoneRebel said:

 

NON Science: Labeling someone a conspiracy theorist to discredit any and all research they have performed. 

So I'll just assume you either work for the CIA, or you own stocks in big pharma.

Your 5 - 10 minute google search on her can in no way compete with her years of research. AND it is not just her research; if you actually TAKE the TIME and look at all the pubmed links and reference material she provides, there are many other doctors that performed the research.

 

Many of you dont have the time or interest in doing any research and simply trust the media because you believe they are doing the research for you.  But while watching any main stream media outlet what commercials are you inundated with?  The media is OWNED/Controlled by who pays the bills.. and thats Big Pharma.  And if you think the media polices itself, watch this:

 

INVESTIGATIVE journalism is now dead!   They are all nothing more than cheerleaders reading from a shared script.

 

This nation used to believe in free speech, but mainstream media and big tech are preventing all debate on vaccines. Why do you think that is?  Is their position soo weak they cannot stand up to us anti-vaxxers publicly??

And doctors that dont do what they are told lose their license.

So if youre gonna label me as a conspiracy theorist I am gonna label you as a coincidence theorist.

its just a coincidence that HIGH DOSE vitamin C kills all viruses.  And its just a coincidence that Wuhan got 50 tons of vitamin C shipped to it in early 2020.

And lastly,  WHY did big pharma demand that congress release them from ALL liability to the vaccines??

WHY DID big pharma DEMAND that congress RELEASE them from ALL LIABILITY to the vaccines??

IF the vaccines are proven safe then that seems like a waste of $$ and lobbying.

And for those of you that enjoy conspiracy theories; WHY is the federal government and the State government of Georgia OK with huge stone structures that advocate mass genocide??!!  Popularly known as the Georgia Genocide Stones.. oops.. I mean the Georgia Guide Stones.

...Back to your regularly scheduled big pharma brain washing commercials

 

Thank you for proving my point so eloquently

[Phil-anderer]

On 2/27/2021 at 11:13 PM, LoneRebel said:

 

NON Science: Labeling someone a conspiracy theorist to discredit any and all research they have performed. 

So I'll just assume you either work for the CIA, or you own stocks in big pharma.

Your 5 - 10 minute google search on her can in no way compete with her years of research. AND it is not just her research; if you actually TAKE the TIME and look at all the pubmed links and reference material she provides, there are many other doctors that performed the research.

 

Many of you dont have the time or interest in doing any research and simply trust the media because you believe they are doing the research for you.  But while watching any main stream media outlet what commercials are you inundated with?  The media is OWNED/Controlled by who pays the bills.. and thats Big Pharma.  And if you think the media polices itself, watch this:

 

INVESTIGATIVE journalism is now dead!   They are all nothing more than cheerleaders reading from a shared script.

 

This nation used to believe in free speech, but mainstream media and big tech are preventing all debate on vaccines. Why do you think that is?  Is their position soo weak they cannot stand up to us anti-vaxxers publicly??

And doctors that dont do what they are told lose their license.

So if youre gonna label me as a conspiracy theorist I am gonna label you as a coincidence theorist.

its just a coincidence that HIGH DOSE vitamin C kills all viruses.  And its just a coincidence that Wuhan got 50 tons of vitamin C shipped to it in early 2020.

And lastly,  WHY did big pharma demand that congress release them from ALL liability to the vaccines??

WHY DID big pharma DEMAND that congress RELEASE them from ALL LIABILITY to the vaccines??

IF the vaccines are proven safe then that seems like a waste of $$ and lobbying.

And for those of you that enjoy conspiracy theories; WHY is the federal government and the State government of Georgia OK with huge stone structures that advocate mass genocide??!!  Popularly known as the Georgia Genocide Stones.. oops.. I mean the Georgia Guide Stones.

...Back to your regularly scheduled big pharma brain washing commercials

 

WOW.  Guess what, doctors aren't being told any of that bullshit.  I know - I am one.

Now I'm going to have to look up this stupid GA structures just so I can really grasp how crazy you are.  You owe me 5 minutes of time.

[Kaduk]

Russian disinformation campaign working to undermine confidence in Covid-19 vaccines used in US

cnn.com/2021/03/07/politics/russian-disinformation-pfizer-vaccines/index.html

The Wall Street Journal

WASHINGTON—Russian intelligence agencies have mounted a campaign to undermine confidence in Pfizer Inc.’s and other Western vaccines, using online publications that in recent months have questioned the vaccines’ development and safety, U.S. officials said.

An official with the State Department’s Global Engagement Center, which monitors foreign disinformation efforts, identified four publications that he said have served as fronts for Russian intelligence.

[frostyjack]

Anecdotally, when I get the flu vaccine, I get the flu. When I don't get the flu vaccine, I don't get the flu. I haven't got the shot in three years and I can't remember the last time i got sick. Besides, I'm in no hurry to get a vaccine for something my own immune system can handle. 

Also, I too was a guinea pig for some very suspect vaccines during my military service, and I'm not eager to go through that again.

Finally, a vaccine developed at a rapid pace with no long term testing, by big pharma companies which all stand to make billions, for a hyper-politicized disease...no thank you. I'll happily let others take that leap of faith. 

[LoneRebel-Banned]

Big pharma disinformation campaign used to undermine confidence in vitamins as cures for disease:

Further proof big pharma KNOWS it cannot compete with vitamins:
Does anyone recall when big pharma tried to get vitamins labeled as drugs?  
Thank God Mel Gibson found out about it:

and you call Suzanne Humphries a conspiracy theorist??
Why didnt you call out:
Thomas Levy
Andrew Saul
Robert Cathcart   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQmAxiR0SHE&list=PLjfxnIWwjbR55OOaoBc9moKJQRFDiZwR-
Frederick Klenner  (cured polio 60 out of 60 using IV vitamin c)
Linus Pauling   (2 nobel prizes)

[BadBoy]

No offense to any particular person, but why do you all feel compelled to share any of this.  Are you under the illusion that we care about your personal pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine opinions?

And if you are compelled to constantly share these positions, why here?

[LoneRebel-Banned]

 I'll keep it short:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/94258

and for those unwilling to read:  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/israeli-study-offers-insight-vaccines-022705894.html

 

[Caressa Duval]

1 hour ago, LoneRebel said:

 I'll keep it short:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/94258

and for those unwilling to read:  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/israeli-study-offers-insight-vaccines-022705894.html

 

I needed a good laugh today Like anyone should take medical advice from medpage and yahoo entertainment.  Hysterical post though, I haven't laughed this hard in months Thnx.

[Phil-anderer]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:32 PM, LoneRebel said:

 I'll keep it short:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/94258

and for those unwilling to read:  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/israeli-study-offers-insight-vaccines-022705894.html

 

Yeah, I'll stick with the consensus of experts, not people who've never practiced medicine doing their own internet research and reaching their own conclusions.  Since you read so much, surely you've uncovered the truth that in medicine, we don't just claim one study as gospel.  It's easy to cherry-pick.  Much harder to go to school into your mid-30's then spend a career studying something.