fork

Is it creepy?

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Is it creepy that I save the advertisement pictures from the girls I see?

In my opinion, creepy would be taking pictures without the girl knowing. I'd never do that. But the published ads seem like a nice memento and fair game.

 

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Yes, I do the same. All the ladies look their sexy best in those pics, which is just the way I want to remember the ladies I have had so much fun with.  Some guys save baseball cards, some guys save liquor bottles. I guess the only difference is they can showcase their collections at home, while mine exists on my hobby email. 😉

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Publishes ads are not fair game. Most of the sites where we ladies post pics we don't have control over their level of protection.

What's creepy is that you admit it openly and now every lady who has seen you knows that you keep pictures. Asking for permission is always cool.

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As long as they are legal Fork.

Personally in my real dating life. I take nude pictures of all the men I have had sex with . They are in a manila envelope, marked "don't open" in case I kick the bucket and family are going through my stuff.

I have visions of me in a nursing home at 90 years old. Rolling my wheel chair around the halls, holding my envelope of pictures of hot men, and telling everyone. "I had them all!"

From a provider stand point...I had a client that was taking me on a tour of his house. We enter the man cave, his garage. It was nicely done, I will say that. Then he shows me his cork board on the wall. He had printed my pictures out on scalloped photo paper and pinned them to the board. (insert sound from Psycho here). I suddenly felt like I was in a bad version of CSI. If he didn't have several P411 okays, I would have bolted for sure.

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As long as they are legal Fork.

Personally in my real dating life. I take nude pictures of all the men I have had sex with . They are in a manila envelope, marked "don't open" in case I kick the bucket and family are going through my stuff.

I have visions of me in a nursing home at 90 years old. Rolling my wheel chair around the halls, holding my envelope of pictures of hot men, and telling everyone. "I had them all!"

From a provider stand point...I had a client that was taking me on a tour of his house. We enter the man cave, his garage. It was nicely done, I will say that. Then he shows me his cork board on the wall. He had printed my pictures out on scalloped photo paper and pinned them to the board. (insert sound from Psycho here). I suddenly felt like I was in a bad version of CSI. If he didn't have several P411 okays, I would have bolted for sure.

Oh, I definitely want to be in your manila envelope!  Does that mean I'm going to have to get a professional photographer and plan on some photo shopping?  I don't want your nursing home friends to say:  "Ewww, you went to bed with him??  Lol!

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Is it creepy that I save the advertisement pictures from the girls I see?

 

Yes.  Creepy.  What? On a lonely night you take it out and page through your collection.... ?  

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Creepy would be kidnapping the women in his picture collection. Creepy would be getting tattoos of all of them.

I don't see anything wrong with having a spank bank.

We all have those lonely nights.

gettin' up there maybe you could have your a** bleached for your photo shoot ;)

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Publishes ads are not fair game. Most of the sites where we ladies post pics we don't have control over their level of protection.

What's creepy is that you admit it openly and now every lady who has seen you knows that you keep pictures. Asking for permission is always cool.

Thanks for the responses. You can pretty much expect that anything on the Internet is out there for the ages, on all these sites that slurp up the pictures from Backpage and other places. I can appreciate that it sucks for the ladies that these pictures aren't in their control.

I don't want to be a creep. I put this question out there for that reason to see what others think. It's a nice way to have a fond memory, the same way you'd keep a picture of a friend, IMHO.

If any lady who has seen me doesn't think this is cool, I'll delete her photos. And if there's a consensus from the ladies that this is wrong then I'll simply stop. Thanks for the comments, everyone.

 

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I have visions of me in a nursing home at 90 years old. Rolling my wheel chair around the halls, holding my envelope of pictures of hot men, and telling everyone. "I had them all!"

Now that's kind of creepy. :P

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The review section used to have a link to the ladies ad, the ad presumably had her photos.  I don't see a big difference between the review section keeping links to the pictures with the reviews, and the reviewer keeping the pictures himself.

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They are in a manila envelope, marked "don't open" in case I kick the bucket and family are going through my stuff.

That's a sure fire way to get relatives TO open it. Perhaps a more distasteful label would be better: "Ass hair collection"

 

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Is it creepy that I save the advertisement pictures from the girls I see?

In my opinion, creepy would be taking pictures without the girl knowing. I'd never do that. But the published ads seem like a nice memento and fair game.

 

I see nothing creepy in wanting to keep mementos or reminders of life's most enjoyable moments. Kinda like vacation photos, theater tickets from a first date, etc. Creepy are the guys that ask the ladies to send pics and have ZERO intention of making an appointment but just want the pics.  So if it is ladies you have actually seen and enjoyed very much ..... don't see the harm. 

 

So ...... I see  your question and raise you one:

Limited edition trading cards obtained and autographed only via actual visit to the fine ladies in question. TOB logo on reverse, nominal charge, proceeds split between lady and TOB in lieu of the proposed $20 member fee.  Creepy or brilliant marketing. ?????

Now you all decide whether I am kidding or not.  Think I will start the popcorn now..Gotta be better than the dead horse thread. :lol:

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That's a sure fire way to get relatives TO open it. Perhaps a more distasteful label would be better: "Ass hair collection"

 

My ass hair collection is for my voodoo dolls, everyone knows that.

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I'm surprised that a couple of the ladies and guys found saving pics of ladies I may wish to remember to be creepy.  And I disagree with Lucy that "Published ads are not fair game".  Regarding the latter, the pics the providers post of themselves are out on the internet and may float around in the public domain forever.  The pics are quite harmless, as they rarely show a face, are not attached to a real identity, and are barely risqué compared to all the porn out there.  They surely don't represent a "spank bank" to me, as there is a lot more stimulating stuff on line if it's self-pleasuring I want.  They are, as gr8owl states, mere mementos of a lovely woman I had the pleasure of spending time with, similar to the pics I take when I travel of other lovely things in this world I have had the pleasure of seeing/experiencing and would like to better remember as the years pass than depending only on my memory.  Just like my travel photos or that wedding album somewhere, I haven't bothered to look at the pics I've saved because I'm still active and still fairly well remember all the special ladies I have met.  Maybe I'll never bother to look at my file, but I'm happy I have tasteful pics of my favorite ladies should I choose to look back whenever.  And when my horny buddies email me pics of hot babes that seem beyond the reach of us middle-aged guys, I'm happy to know I have a real collection of beauties that I've enjoyed getting to know, both physically and mentally.  I would think a woman I've spent time with would be flattered by the compliment I'm paying her by feeling the time I've spent with her was to me more than a fleeting encounter and worthy of savoring the memory.  It may be creepy that I'm unfaithful to my wife, it may be creepy that I've turned to paying money to spend time with women, but it's not creepy that many women have benefitted from their relationship with me, financially and maybe in other ways, and its not creepy that I've saved some of the pics the ladies have freely posted for all the world to see.

 

And Fork, don't be intimidated by a "consensus" of 2 ladies who find the practice to be creepy and, of course, don't delete a damn thing because of two random opinions that lack much real thought. 

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The review section used to have a link to the ladies ad, the ad presumably had her photos.  I don't see a big difference between the review section keeping links to the pictures with the reviews, and the reviewer keeping the pictures himself.

Because the photos aren't for personal use and if the internet is forever  bookmark the photos and come back to them if you want to see them. Review sections keeping links is way different, because it's a link to the pics that the lady has provided not a copy that's stored in a folder for whatever reasons..

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I'm surprised that a couple of the ladies and guys found saving pics of ladies I may wish to remember to be creepy.  And I disagree with Lucy that "Published ads are not fair game".  Regarding the latter, the pics the providers post of themselves are out on the internet and may float around in the public domain forever.  The pics are quite harmless, as they rarely show a face, are not attached to a real identity, and are barely risqué compared to all the porn out there.  They surely don't represent a "spank bank" to me, as there is a lot more stimulating stuff on line if it's self-pleasuring I want.  They are, as gr8owl states, mere mementos of a lovely woman I had the pleasure of spending time with, similar to the pics I take when I travel of other lovely things in this world I have had the pleasure of seeing/experiencing and would like to better remember as the years pass than depending only on my memory.  Just like my travel photos or that wedding album somewhere, I haven't bothered to look at the pics I've saved because I'm still active and still fairly well remember all the special ladies I have met.  Maybe I'll never bother to look at my file, but I'm happy I have tasteful pics of my favorite ladies should I choose to look back whenever.  And when my horny buddies email me pics of hot babes that seem beyond the reach of us middle-aged guys, I'm happy to know I have a real collection of beauties that I've enjoyed getting to know, both physically and mentally.  I would think a woman I've spent time with would be flattered by the compliment I'm paying her by feeling the time I've spent with her was to me more than a fleeting encounter and worthy of savoring the memory.  It may be creepy that I'm unfaithful to my wife, it may be creepy that I've turned to paying money to spend time with women, but it's not creepy that many women have benefitted from their relationship with me, financially and maybe in other ways, and its not creepy that I've saved some of the pics the ladies have freely posted for all the world to see.

 

And Fork, don't be intimidated by a "consensus" of 2 ladies who find the practice to be creepy and, of course, don't delete a damn thing because of two random opinions that lack much real thought. 

Like I said in my post that was "lacking real thought" we don't have control over the level of protection of the photos that we post. I am also certain that %100 of providers post pictures to lure in clients not provide wank fodder. There is also this thing you guys are overlooking called permission. Saying out loud that you collect pictures of women you have seen without their knowledge is creepy. You know the not creepy really simple answer is to ask for permission, it should be easy especially if you're collecting "trophies". If like you said most ladies would be flattered, why not just be certain and ask? Those who are actually into it might actually surprise you with photos that are just for you and you can respect the wishes of those who aren't.

I am totally aware that the internet is mostly forever but it's the best means I have to do my job. I protected my photos on my site the best I could and there are still ways to snag the photos. I also don't really like to think about all the random strangers that have access and what they have done with my photos, it is creepy and I have no minimal over it. It happens and I know but it doesn't make it not creepy and it's something I would rather not know. Not everyone can be trusted and not everyone steals photos for a good cause. What happens when a pic collectors computer is compromised? A stolen laptop or snooping spouse? Some ladies may not be comfortable with that.

Sorry that my discomfort and my opinion that is "lacking real thought" is disagreeable to you but thanks for the slight. The "consensus" of ladies may only be two but it was two of the three that actually posted in this thread. Our opinions weren't random either, both came from long standing providers who actively participate (or did at least), if you need to put others down to support your case did you really have one to begin with? My opinion doesn't matter less because you disagree with it.

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Like I said in my post that was "lacking real thought" we don't have control over the level of protection of the photos that we post. I am also certain that %100 of providers post pictures to lure in clients not provide wank fodder. There is also this thing you guys are overlooking called permission. Saying out loud that you collect pictures of women you have seen without their knowledge is creepy. You know the not creepy really simple answer is to ask for permission, it should be easy especially if you're collecting "trophies". If like you said most ladies would be flattered, why not just be certain and ask? Those who are actually into it might actually surprise you with photos that are just for you and you can respect the wishes of those who aren't.

I am totally aware that the internet is mostly forever but it's the best means I have to do my job. I protected my photos on my site the best I could and there are still ways to snag the photos. I also don't really like to think about all the random strangers that have access and what they have done with my photos, it is creepy and I have no minimal over it. It happens and I know but it doesn't make it not creepy and it's something I would rather not know. Not everyone can be trusted and not everyone steals photos for a good cause. What happens when a pic collectors computer is compromised? A stolen laptop or snooping spouse? Some ladies may not be comfortable with that.

Sorry that my discomfort and my opinion that is "lacking real thought" is disagreeable to you but thanks for the slight. The "consensus" of ladies may only be two but it was two of the three that actually posted in this thread. Our opinions weren't random either, both came from long standing providers who actively participate (or did at least), if you need to put others down to support your case did you really have one to begin with? My opinion doesn't matter less because you disagree with it.

Lucy, I know you were responding to "getting-up-there" not me, but I felt compelled to respond.

First, I don't use the photos for "wank fodder", even if others may. I use them as a fond memory and I respect (almost) all the ladies I have seen. There's plenty of wank fodder on the Internet available.

Second, I count that two ladies have responded negatively and one positively (with a great story of her own photos). I don't consider three responses to be a big enough survey to draw any conclusions about consensus. I suspect that most ladies here simply don't care enough about the topic to respond, and the consensus is therefore "don't care".

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I had this one laminated, just so I could lick it!

I am all about the fond memories.

almostpolitically[1].gif

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I had this one laminated, just so I could lick it!

I am all about the fond memories.

almostpolitically[1].gif

Yeah, baby! I look even better now with my neck tattoos.

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First, I don't use the photos for "wank fodder", even if others may. I use them as a fond memory and I respect (almost) all the ladies I have seen. There's plenty of wank fodder on the Internet available.

As I was composing my response in my head, the above sounded almost like mind-reading.

Life is passing us by if we cannot recall the past with fond memories. 

To me, reflection like this reminds me how lucky I've been to know some beautiful people.

Good vibrations and warm feelings.

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Like I said in my post that was "lacking real thought" we don't have control over the level of protection of the photos that we post. I am also certain that %100 of providers post pictures to lure in clients not provide wank fodder. There is also this thing you guys are overlooking called permission. Saying out loud that you collect pictures of women you have seen without their knowledge is creepy. You know the not creepy really simple answer is to ask for permission, it should be easy especially if you're collecting "trophies". If like you said most ladies would be flattered, why not just be certain and ask? Those who are actually into it might actually surprise you with photos that are just for you and you can respect the wishes of those who aren't.

I am totally aware that the internet is mostly forever but it's the best means I have to do my job. I protected my photos on my site the best I could and there are still ways to snag the photos. I also don't really like to think about all the random strangers that have access and what they have done with my photos, it is creepy and I have no minimal over it. It happens and I know but it doesn't make it not creepy and it's something I would rather not know. Not everyone can be trusted and not everyone steals photos for a good cause. What happens when a pic collectors computer is compromised? A stolen laptop or snooping spouse? Some ladies may not be comfortable with that.

Sorry that my discomfort and my opinion that is "lacking real thought" is disagreeable to you but thanks for the slight. The "consensus" of ladies may only be two but it was two of the three that actually posted in this thread. Our opinions weren't random either, both came from long standing providers who actively participate (or did at least), if you need to put others down to support your case did you really have one to begin with? My opinion doesn't matter less because you disagree with it.

I do apologize for suggesting your first post in this thread was "lacking real thought", as that was presumptuous of me, since there was no way I could know how much thought went into your post. What I should have said, was your post didn't demonstrate much thought, given it consisted of 4 sentences, the first two of which was only a lament that you didn't have control of pictures you post on the Internet.  Your two sentences devoted to the question Fork asked as to whether his practice was creepy seemed to indicate that it was creepy not that I may save pics of providers I have seen, but that I unabashedly admitted to the practice. I suspect you meant that the practice was inherently creepy, otherwise my admitting that I did this would not likely be itself creepy.  In the end, this thread only serves to illustrate what is creepy to one may not be to another and that some of us supposedly open-minded folks are quick to criticize others for something as trivial as saving a body shot a provider willingly put on the internet.  

OMG, can you imagine if someone cracked the code to my laptop and my hobby email password and found body pics that could be associated with an ad of a provider?  To think of the jeopardy the provider would be in that someone, like LE, might be able to link the pic with an actual provider ad and obtain the provider's business name and phone number!  Oh wait, I forgot, such information is available to LE, as it is to all of us, every time we open up TOB, BP, etc.

I found your suggestion funny that now all the providers I have seen will know the horrible truth about me:  that the guy they had fun with over and over again and who helped them sustain the lifestyle they enjoyed, that guy was, gasp, a picture saver!  The shivers that will surely descend down their spines!  I'm sure it would be like finding out they almost had a date with a serial killer! 

And yes, "asking permission is cool", just gratuitous if no permission is needed, as in no harm done except perceived by the slightly paranoid out there.  But for fun, I just might pop the question to the next provider I see as we're in a post-coital snuggle:  "Hey, babe, you know those sexy pics of you in your ad that you had professionally done and that make us guys lose our senses and risk our marriages, careers, and financial well-being?  Would you mind if I hang on to that unidentifiable pic so I can remember how beautiful you were years from now when my hobby days are done?  And is it okay if I hang on to the P411"OK" you gave me even though you may soon retire?  And can I keep those notes I placed in your P411 file, you know, my notes that say: "Great ass!  And a BJ like no other!"?  

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I do apologize for suggesting your first post in this thread was "lacking real thought", as that was presumptuous of me, since there was no way I could know how much thought went into your post. What I should have said, was your post didn't demonstrate much thought, given it consisted of 4 sentences, the first two of which was only a lament that you didn't have control of pictures you post on the Internet.  Your two sentences devoted to the question Fork asked as to whether his practice was creepy seemed to indicate that it was creepy not that I may save pics of providers I have seen, but that I unabashedly admitted to the practice. I suspect you meant that the practice was inherently creepy, otherwise my admitting that I did this would not likely be itself creepy.  In the end, this thread only serves to illustrate what is creepy to one may not be to another and that some of us supposedly open-minded folks are quick to criticize others for something as trivial as saving a body shot a provider willingly put on the internet.  

OMG, can you imagine if someone cracked the code to my laptop and my hobby email password and found body pics that could be associated with an ad of a provider?  To think of the jeopardy the provider would be in that someone, like LE, might be able to link the pic with an actual provider ad and obtain the provider's business name and phone number!  Oh wait, I forgot, such information is available to LE, as it is to all of us, every time we open up TOB, BP, etc.

I found your suggestion funny that now all the providers I have seen will know the horrible truth about me:  that the guy they had fun with over and over again and who helped them sustain the lifestyle they enjoyed, that guy was, gasp, a picture saver!  The shivers that will surely descend down their spines!  I'm sure it would be like finding out they almost had a date with a serial killer! 

And yes, "asking permission is cool", just gratuitous if no permission is needed, as in no harm done except perceived by the slightly paranoid out there.  But for fun, I just might pop the question to the next provider I see as we're in a post-coital snuggle:  "Hey, babe, you know those sexy pics of you in your ad that you had professionally done and that make us guys lose our senses and risk our marriages, careers, and financial well-being?  Would you mind if I hang on to that unidentifiable pic so I can remember how beautiful you were years from now when my hobby days are done?  And is it okay if I hang on to the P411"OK" you gave me even though you may soon retire?  And can I keep those notes I placed in your P411 file, you know, my notes that say: "Great ass!  And a BJ like no other!"?  

You disagree. That's obvious. Now you look like a foaming-at-the-mouth jackass, who can't accept that someone doesn't think like him. Is it worth getting put on several "do not see" lists? (shake my head)

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Lucy, I know you were responding to "getting-up-there" not me, but I felt compelled to respond.

First, I don't use the photos for "wank fodder", even if others may. I use them as a fond memory and I respect (almost) all the ladies I have seen. There's plenty of wank fodder on the Internet available.

Second, I count that two ladies have responded negatively and one positively (with a great story of her own photos). I don't consider three responses to be a big enough survey to draw any conclusions about consensus. I suspect that most ladies here simply don't care enough about the topic to respond, and the consensus is therefore "don't care".

Your basing all of these assumptions on how you do it and that's fine but in the wider scope it's still creepy. Anyone could be collecting our photos and using them for whatever reasons, that and not knowing about it is what really makes it creepy.

Assuming based on lack of response that ladies don't care is careless. She didn't say yes but she didn't say no either!! Three women responding to one thread is pretty good around here. Two out of three thought it was creepy and you don't like results so you complain it's not enough of a sample and assume that because of the lack of response you must be doing something not creepy.  Assuming that no response means not caring is also kind of creepy.

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I do apologize for suggesting your first post in this thread was "lacking real thought", as that was presumptuous of me, since there was no way I could know how much thought went into your post. What I should have said, was your post didn't demonstrate much thought, given it consisted of 4 sentences, the first two of which was only a lament that you didn't have control of pictures you post on the Internet.  Your two sentences devoted to the question Fork asked as to whether his practice was creepy seemed to indicate that it was creepy not that I may save pics of providers I have seen, but that I unabashedly admitted to the practice. I suspect you meant that the practice was inherently creepy, otherwise my admitting that I did this would not likely be itself creepy.  In the end, this thread only serves to illustrate what is creepy to one may not be to another and that some of us supposedly open-minded folks are quick to criticize others for something as trivial as saving a body shot a provider willingly put on the internet.  

OMG, can you imagine if someone cracked the code to my laptop and my hobby email password and found body pics that could be associated with an ad of a provider?  To think of the jeopardy the provider would be in that someone, like LE, might be able to link the pic with an actual provider ad and obtain the provider's business name and phone number!  Oh wait, I forgot, such information is available to LE, as it is to all of us, every time we open up TOB, BP, etc.

I found your suggestion funny that now all the providers I have seen will know the horrible truth about me:  that the guy they had fun with over and over again and who helped them sustain the lifestyle they enjoyed, that guy was, gasp, a picture saver!  The shivers that will surely descend down their spines!  I'm sure it would be like finding out they almost had a date with a serial killer! 

And yes, "asking permission is cool", just gratuitous if no permission is needed, as in no harm done except perceived by the slightly paranoid out there.  But for fun, I just might pop the question to the next provider I see as we're in a post-coital snuggle:  "Hey, babe, you know those sexy pics of you in your ad that you had professionally done and that make us guys lose our senses and risk our marriages, careers, and financial well-being?  Would you mind if I hang on to that unidentifiable pic so I can remember how beautiful you were years from now when my hobby days are done?  And is it okay if I hang on to the P411"OK" you gave me even though you may soon retire?  And can I keep those notes I placed in your P411 file, you know, my notes that say: "Great ass!  And a BJ like no other!"?  

Why is there no permission needed? Stealing photos is stealing photos no matter how they are used. Taking something without permission is stealing. I will say for the third time that provider pics are not well protected, that doesn't mean permission to steal. Providers willingly put those pics on the internet to advertise you have created an extra purpose for them not the ladies that are posting them.  Fork asked a question as to whether or not it was creepy and I gave my opinion and it's so painfully clear that it's wrong because you don't agree and again the only to try and prove your point is by insulting me. I have an incredibly open mind but I also have boundaries and understanding. I would never use or store sexy photos without someone knowing.

OMG it's totally hilarious that you can't consider anyone but yourself. So what that you think what you're doing is fine, others wont. It's very unfortunate that you think no permission is needed. In fact it's kind of unsettling and makes you look creepy. Turning permission into a joke makes you look even worse. If what you do is so innocent and you are so certain that women will just be OK with it why not ask??

My favorite client lives out of state and he is kind of a big fan of pics so being his ATF he asked if he could have a few pics for in between visits. Time has passed and he now has a collection of 1000+ pictures and at least a dozen videos. Asking has it's perks.

 

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Assuming based on lack of response that ladies don't care is careless. She didn't say yes but she didn't say no either!! Three women responding to one thread is pretty good around here. Two out of three thought it was creepy and you don't like results so you complain it's not enough of a sample and assume that because of the lack of response you must be doing something not creepy.  Assuming that no response means not caring is also kind of creepy.

You don't understand statistics. This thread has had 449 views, and some are repeat viewers and some are men. But I would estimate that probably 50 women have read the original post. Of that, two have said it's creepy. The consensus is clearly somewhere between "boring", "no opinion", and "don't care enough to type a response".

I guess I'm just creepy in your eyes, Lucy, and we're going to have to leave it there.

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I actually do not find this creepy. I know if I post a photo on the web it's out there for all to see, print, jerk off to etc etc. I may not have control over who sees the photos, but I do have control over the photos I choose to post. If you want to save a photo of my ass, so be it...

BTW I have had my photo on a trading card someone had made that I signed. I wasn't really bothered.

 

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I actually do not find this creepy. I know if I post a photo on the web it's out there for all to see, print, jerk off to etc etc. I may not have control over who sees the photos, but I do have control over the photos I choose to post. If you want to save a photo of my ass, so be it...

BTW I have had my photo on a trading card someone had made that I signed. I wasn't really bothered.

 

Thank you, Abigail, for being such a shining light in an otherwise  surprisingly dark forest. It's so nice to hear that you don't feel anyone has stolen from you what you have offered up for free and have no fear that a picture of your tush will not one day come back to bite you on your, well, tush:)

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I actually do not find this creepy. I know if I post a photo on the web it's out there for all to see, print, jerk off to etc etc. I may not have control over who sees the photos, but I do have control over the photos I choose to post. If you want to save a photo of my ass, so be it...

BTW I have had my photo on a trading card someone had made that I signed. I wasn't really bothered.

 

i gotta admit, that is a pretty nice ass in that picture.. definitely worth a spot on a trading card.. 😋

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You disagree. That's obvious. Now you look like a foaming-at-the-mouth jackass, who can't accept that someone doesn't think like him. Is it worth getting put on several "do not see" lists? (shake my head)

I'm fine with someone disagreeing with me. Just surprised and having fun with the seriousness with which this topic has been treated, including myself for falling prey and getting too sucked in. Clearly not my preferred sucked in. Lighten up there, buddy, and avoid the name calling. 

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