Bait and .....arrest !

[harpo]

A provider replying to a post titled (Provider Solicitation) said :

(Recently, one of clients whom I have been seeing for very long time was apparently solicited by a provider he has seen before, he booked the appointment.

Once he arrived he was arrested.)

Did this happen to you and why a provider would switch sides ?

Any provider with the last name Snowden lol.

[Boardmember]

Just speculating that she probably decided to "switch" after being arrested herself and was "baiting" to reduce the consequences of that?

Is there any way to avoid being the dude who was arrested? Is this situation a reason to never -- even with someone you've visited often -- discuss specifics and never do any of the "don't do's" regarding donations and such? My hunch is yes.

Maybe someone with more experience in these matters could explain the details of what evidence (probably cause) is used to allow arrest. It has been said many times the "hobby" has risks and the key is doing as much as possible to reduce the risks. So example, if someone walks into a setting and the provider asks blatantly for a donation and discusses activities for that donation, could (shouldn't) the client just turn and leave, play dumb (play dead...), et al?

Very interested in a provider's point of view on this. Wouldn't you expect that the woman mentioned likely had something (or someone) important at risk with the authorities (not to be dramatic) that made her do this? And I wonder how many other clients might have been put into the same set-up?

[Guest]

Im sorry I forgot to mention the following: they also impounded his car, they took his cell phone. They also notified his finance company. (He has loan on his car monthly pmts, it was not a rental) They also notified his wife. Pending court date...

Iv never been busted, I never even been arrested. So, I don't know how to answer this question. I am sure it depends on several things.....

[Velvet Valentine]

:DSome LE, such as FBI, might just want a bigger piece of the pie. Many times they will offer a deal to someone they arrest for a lower sentence. You often see this when a girl is busted for multiple charges, like maybe drugs, or something like that and she is trying to get a reduced sentence. That's common in law inforcement of all areas, not just with busting hookers. You read about it all the time. Keep in mind one thing though....Who ever that provider is, might not have necessarily been a rat....or maybe she was only looking out for herself. LE could have also been watching her again, and maybe that guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got mxed up in it. I could be very wrong about that, but from my years of doing this, many times the guy is just there and it's by accident...wrong place, bad timing.

I am not defending her at all, I have no knowledge of the case Nikki is speaking of, but many times, that is how the guys get hooked in it. Again, not saying this happened here, but it does happen that way more often than not.

As always this is where screening and research pays off. If you see reputable girls who are discrete and care about others, rather than any old newbie BP girl , chances of this happening can be reduced. Sometimes you need to choose with your brain and not with your cock. EEK! LOL

Edited August 17, 2013 by Velvet Valentine
sp.

[Velvet Valentine]

Actually, I'm still sitting here thinking of a variety of senarios that could also happen here....I suppose LE could always confiscate a providers phone, if she were arrested, then solicite a client if she has him in her phone. LE loves texting as well.....who knows. Thanksfully, I have never had this problem either.

[MAG]

Im sorry I forgot to mention the following: they also impounded his car, they took his cell phone. They also notified his finance company. (He has loan on his car monthly pmts, it was not a rental) They also notified his wife. Pending court date...

I don't believe a word of this.

Why would the police call his finance company? They have better things to do. Why would they call his wife?

Once they make the arrest, it goes into their stats and they couldn't care less what happens after that.

I'm betting the guy stuck his own dick in a mouse-trap and he's just spinning the details to save some face.

[buffalosoldier]

In Denver they often seize vehicles as a public nuisance. I've seen it even where they can only make an escort license violation.

Never say a word if there is an arrest. Ask for lawyer. Often they are in the next room and do not know how you got there. Do not tell them.

Due process requires that anyone with an ownership interest in the property to be forfeited is entitled to notice. That would be the finance company and the wife. As innocent parties they are entitled to assert their interest in the property.

I presume this guy talked way too much.

[2Big]

Link to evidence/newspaper article/court docket. Otherwise, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

[mtnman2000]

The car getting impounded with a civil nuisance lawsuit is real.

Calling the wife, possible.

Calling the finance company, that doesn't make sense unless they found out about it via impounding or something.

[gr8owl]

I don't believe a word of this.

Why would the police call his finance company? They have better things to do. Why would they call his wife?

.

Civil property seizure laws vary a little from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in general property used in the commission of a crime (prostitution, solicitation, drugs if also found, etc.) can be seized at the time of arrest/citation. I would leave it to an attorney, which I certainly AM NOT, to explain the details and difference between civil (easy for government, no conviction required, hard to get back) and criminal. If the cops decide to confiscate the auto used in the commission of a "crime" they can and will. But they have to notify lien holders - finance company - and all owners on the title - wife?

That said, I have no idea what happened in the alleged story (or even IF it happened) which is precisely why I hate third party hearsay stories of fear and paranoia with nowhere near enough facts to have any idea what really happened. Then wild speculation as to what happened sets in.

But, rest assured that most Colorado jurisdictions can and will confiscate your phone, car, home, etc. if they believe they can connect it to the commission of a crime, including prostitution and solicitation. It is also a money maker for them because it is very difficult for you to get it back and they can auction it off.

[FirstTracks]

Link to evidence/newspaper article/court docket. Otherwise, I'm calling bullshit on this story.

Yep. It's entrapment. Total BS.

And, yes, I CAN give legal advice.

[buffalosoldier]

You can give legal advice but it is not correct.

[FirstTracks]

You can give legal advice but it is not correct.

In this case it is. 100%. Would be a slam dunk. As long as the details are correct:

1. Provider (even previously seen) contacts client

2. Provider asks client to set up an appointment

3. Client sets up appointment

4. Client shows up at provider incall

OK, I should offer a caveat to my "entrapment" statement:

At this point nothing illegal has occurred and the client CANNOT be arrested for anything.

Now if a #5 occurs where provider and client engage in sexual activity AND it can be proven that the client paid for it then the client CAN be arrested, but this case would be tossed easily if the prosecution even mentions #1 & #2 above. That is 100% entrapment.

Besides, the concept of LE using a provider just to snag a client is a joke.

Similar to using a drug dealer to call a customer, get them to buy drugs just to arrest the customer. #1 not worth the effort, #2 so full of holes that a back of the phone book attorney could beat that one.

Sorry, file this whole thing with the stolen kidney story.

I know there is (for sure) at least one attorney that is a member on here AND posts occasionally. Want to offer an opposing argument? =)

[mrvegas63]

Well, according to CO law, steps 1-4 can get you arrested.

18-7-202: Soliciting for prostitution

(1) A person commits soliciting for prostitution if he:

(a) Solicits another for the purpose of prostitution; or

( Arranges or offers to arrange a meeting of persons for the purpose of prostitution; or

© Directs another to a place knowing such direction is for the purpose of prostitution.

Or (1.b being the key one):

18-7-205: Patronizing a prostitute

(1) Any person who performs any of the following with a person not his spouse commits patronizing a prostitute:

(a) Engages in an act of sexual intercourse or of deviate sexual conduct with a prostitute; or

( Enters or remains in a place of prostitution with intent to engage in an act of sexual intercourse or deviate sexual conduct.

[buffalosoldier]

Not even close to 100%

In Colorado entrapment is an affirmative defense at trial. You have to admit to the crime before you can invoke it. You may win at trial but you have to admit the offense first.

YOU can go to trial to test it. You be cocky after you get convicted.

Sex does not have to happen, merely an offer of sex for money. The problem with these cases is not sex it talking about sex and money.

she says "let's engage in activities for 3 hours for a mere $50 more than last time". Dickhead says yes and cops walk in.

As g8owl said we don't know the facts so this is all just unfounded speculation. But for a high value target the cops may want to turn a provider.

[FirstTracks]

OK caveat time again. Sorry for trying to simplify things. I don't mind having a lengthy discussion; I was just trying to be as brief as possible.

Here's the deal:

Yes a person CAN be arrested just for solicitation.

So what does LE generally do? They use UC female officers. Why? Because they are credible witnesses. They often use some sort of surveillance (video and/or audio) that can be used as evidence to strengthen their case. This will generally be a fairly involved operation utilizing other officers in the area both for the UC's safety and to effect arrest. This may or may not actually involve a hotel (or similar) room.

What does LE not do? They do not use providers for small-scale operations. Why? 1) The provider is essentially a replacement for the UC officer above as a witness - easily impeachable, 2) LE would have to have a LOT of surveillance in place - and the problem is that they would have to actually record the phone call or have record of text messages otherwise they ONLY have the provider's word in court; and that evidence is actually difficult to obtain in an admissible manner AND even harder to not have tossed. 3) LE would have to be targeting a decent number of clients in order to even make this worthwhile at all.

So, while we know that LE will commit the resources necessary to carry out this sort of operation, they are NOT going to do so when all they are getting is a whole bunch of questionable arrests that will lead to several small fines at best and a very high risk of multiple civil suits should they do any of the things mentioned in the OP.

The client "could" be arrested, but wouldn't be. Not just for that. Not unless this was the stupidest PD in the country.

Pics or it didn't happen.

At least not as stated.

[FirstTracks]

Not even close to 100%

In Colorado entrapment is an affirmative defense at trial. You have to admit to the crime before you can invoke it. You may win at trial but you have to admit the offense first.

YOU can go to trial to test it. You be cocky after you get convicted.

Sex does not have to happen, merely an offer of sex for money. The problem with these cases is not sex it talking about sex and money.

she says "let's engage in activities for 3 hours for a mere $50 more than last time". Dickhead says yes and cops walk in.

As g8owl said we don't know the facts so this is all just unfounded speculation. But for a high value target the cops may want to turn a provider.

Right. Which is exactly why I have said "as stated in the OP".

Barring some high profile target or a fairly large operation, this simply isn't happening.

Then toss in property seizure, contacting his wife, etc... That is something I would fight.

If it is JUST the fine, my advice: Pay it and move on.

[FirstTracks]

Would be interesting to see IF this actually happened if it was in Lakewood or Aurora...

[FirstTracks]

Oh and for the record: I believe that all unsubstantiated posts like the OP should fall under the FUD rule and be removed.....

[Jez UaBriain]

Anyone who gets arrested, then turns in another person to save there own ass is a snitch. We are adults here. If you get busted doing anything, then man up or woman up , pull up your big kid panties and deal with the consequences.

As you can tell I don't think much of snitchs. Total lack of integrity.

[harpo]

Besides, the concept of LE using a provider just to snag a client is a joke.

=)

Was that a joke ?

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/23/us/white-house-set-up-drug-buy-in-the-park-for-bush-tv-speech.html

((Government agents lured a drug dealer to the park in front of the White House to buy crack for a prop in President Bush's televised speech on drugs, a move the President testily defended today.))

[Guest hgritstoo]

Anyone who gets arrested, then turns in another person to save their own ass is a snitch. We are adults here. If you get busted doing anything, then man up or woman up , pull up your big kid panties and deal with the consequences.

As you can tell I don't think much of snitchs. Total lack of integrity.

Yes indeed, and:

Easy to say. Hard to do. Risk mitigation.

1) Get a lawyer. Tell him what you do. Put him/her on retainer.

2) I have one very nice car. Insurance is comprehensive. SO always drives this car. I have 2 old cars and one old truck. All paid for. Liability only. My name only. I have a "quirk"...I buy cars new, and drive them into the ground. I NEVER hobby in the good car.

2) I have a hobby phone. Password protected. I can toss it in the trash and walk away.

3) I never make same day appointments if I can possibly avoid it. And I schedule exclusively via ladies on P411. Not perfect, I know, but I believe Gina does her best to weed out the busted as soon as she learns about them. I check P411 within a few hours of the appointment. I check local sites for alerts. Again, not perfect I know...but at least if folks are reporting something I hear.

5) I have no protection against a provider I've seen before who is setting me up. But if nailed, hopefully the steps I've taken....plus the act of shutting the f**k up, will minimize my losses.

[FirstTracks]

Was that a joke ?

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/23/us/white-house-set-up-drug-buy-in-the-park-for-bush-tv-speech.html

((Government agents lured a drug dealer to the park in front of the White House to buy crack for a prop in President Bush's televised speech on drugs, a move the President testily defended today.))

And in related news FritoLay released Pepsi flavored Cheetos in Japan....

[Hoarce]

Enough has been said on validity of story, entrapment, LE tactics.

The notification of the finance company may be routine in a seized car as (assuming its the lien holder on car's title) they have a financial interest and a legal stake in the action.

[urfan]

tldr . . . . . . .

[FirstTracks]

Easy to say. Hard to do. Risk mitigation.

1) Get a lawyer. Tell him what you do. Put him/her on retainer.

2) I have one very nice car. Insurance is comprehensive. SO always drives this car. I have 2 old cars and one old truck. All paid for. Liability only. My name only. I have a "quirk"...I buy cars new, and drive them into the ground. I NEVER hobby in the good car.

2) I have a hobby phone. Password protected. I can toss it in the trash and walk away.

3) I never make same day appointments if I can possibly avoid it. And I schedule exclusively via ladies on P411. Not perfect, I know, but I believe Gina does her best to weed out the busted as soon as she learns about them. I check P411 within a few hours of the appointment. I check local sites for alerts. Again, not perfect I know...but at least if folks are reporting something I hear.

5) I have no protection against a provider I've seen before who is setting me up. But if nailed, hopefully the steps I've taken....plus the act of shutting the f**k up, will minimize my losses.

OK, far better than arguing the merits of a hypothetical case would be discussing possible protections, etc.

#1 is great advice. Not the retainer part, not too many people can keep an attorney on retainer. However have, at least, the name of an attorney and preferably the name and number or a business card.

Just saying to the police "call my lawyer" does not truly offer any protection, nor does it place any burden on them to do anything. You MUST tell them either "call <insert name> at <insert number>" or demand you be allowed to call your attorney. Other than that, don't say a word.

#2 is OK too, but who is going to bother having a tertiary vehicle for this purpose or renting a car? Best option: Use Uber - more options than a cab even though a bit more expensive.

Using your own vehicle is fine, but be prepared for the possibilities. Also using someone else's vehicle or one in a spouse's name is no good as it can still be seized.

Other #2 isn't too bad, but the latest rulings have upheld the ability of LE to search even password protected phones. Toss phones are great when everyone involved is using them. Otherwise their worth in protection against prosecution is diminished significantly. Where are you going to toss it when it is in your pocket when arrested? And it has numbers that can be tracked associated with it?

Best option: Use an Android phone - your regular one even. Get a Google Voice number, they offer I think up to 5 for free and they can be cancelled easily. Connect that number to your phone. Get one of many apps that allow you to specify that if a certain number of invalid codes are entered into your locked phone (or even if a specific code is entered), your phone will be wiped clean.

This is great for the ladies as well. DON'T have a laptop with you at your incall, leave it at home. Whatever email service you use can be accessed via your phone and at least the traces of it on your phone would be wiped out.

Either delete email messages from the service regularly. If you need to keep messages, have another account and forward/move them to that account.

If you use a particular email address in your ads, LE can, and will, gain access to it. However they would have to first find the other account and then prove that it was used in the commission of a crime. Hard enough to do that it likely isn't worth their while unless you are running some huge prostitution ring.

#3 is OK, but (and I might get flack for this) trusting anyone else with providing you a primary level of security, unless they are well trained in various security tactics, is just foolish.

#5 Bingo!

For the TLDR crowd: http://bit.ly/14WA4Zc

[Velvet Valentine]

The notification of the finance company may be routine in a seized car as (assuming its the lien holder on car's title) they have a financial interest and a legal stake in the action.

I was always under the assumption that a car cannot be (or is not usually) seized unless it is actually used while commiting a crime, such as drug dealing, soliciting a street girl from the car, ect....am I wrong on that?

[Porto]

Best option: Use an Android phone - your regular one even. Get a Google Voice number, they offer I think up to 5 for free and they can be cancelled easily. Connect that number to your phone. Get one of many apps that allow you to specify that if a certain number of invalid codes are entered into your locked phone (or even if a specific code is entered), your phone will be wiped clean.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Since droids are a product of Google and Google has openly admitted to cooperating with LE with a no questions asked attitude. Plus the Google apps for droids are part of the open source market and Google does nothing to protect its customers from any malware embedded in the app coding. What does his mean for Android users? You're privacy just went away. Google granting LE to all their records without cause. Doesn't matter if you forward a call or email, delete your phone, etc. There is a record of it and don't fool yourself if you think tossing your phone or "deleting" its contents saves your ass. And it can all be traced right back to you.

These are the reasons I don't use droids or gmail. Don't get me wrong, you aren't any more safe using different options, you are slightly less tracked which doesn't say much.

Bottom line. I don't care what kind of lawyer you have, how much money you have, what you say or don't say or how much you try to cover your ass. If LE wants to bust you and make it stick, they will. If you are doing something illegal, expect to get caught.

Realistically, what does busting a John accomplish? Revenue. It does nothing to solve the problem at hand. I call BS on the story as well.

[Guest hgritstoo]

I was always under the assumption that a car cannot be (or is not usually) seized unless it is actually used while commiting a crime, such as drug dealing, soliciting a street girl from the car, ect....am I wrong on that?

Not entirely sure about CO......but out here if you drove your car over to see the gal then they will argue you used it in the commision of a crime....and seize. It probably won't hold up if you go to court to get it back....but they're hoping you won't fight it. Once assests are seized, the burden of proof is on the owner that it wasn't used in a crime.

Asset forfeiture laws suck.

[Guest hgritstoo]

LOL....Sorry. 3 kinds of people in this world: those who can count and those who can't.

OK, far better than arguing the merits of a hypothetical case would be discussing possible protections, etc.

#1 is great advice. Not the retainer part, not too many people can keep an attorney on retainer. However have, at least, the name of an attorney and preferably the name and number or a business card.

Just saying to the police "call my lawyer" does not truly offer any protection, nor does it place any burden on them to do anything. You MUST tell them either "call <insert name> at <insert number>" or demand you be allowed to call your attorney. Other than that, don't say a word.

#2 is OK too, but who is going to bother having a tertiary vehicle for this purpose or renting a car? Best option: Use Uber - more options than a cab even though a bit more expensive.

Using your own vehicle is fine, but be prepared for the possibilities. Also using someone else's vehicle or one in a spouse's name is no good as it can still be seized.

Other #2 isn't too bad, but the latest rulings have upheld the ability of LE to search even password protected phones. Toss phones are great when everyone involved is using them. Otherwise their worth in protection against prosecution is diminished significantly. Where are you going to toss it when it is in your pocket when arrested? And it has numbers that can be tracked associated with it?

Best option: Use an Android phone - your regular one even. Get a Google Voice number, they offer I think up to 5 for free and they can be cancelled easily. Connect that number to your phone. Get one of many apps that allow you to specify that if a certain number of invalid codes are entered into your locked phone (or even if a specific code is entered), your phone will be wiped clean.

This is great for the ladies as well. DON'T have a laptop with you at your incall, leave it at home. Whatever email service you use can be accessed via your phone and at least the traces of it on your phone would be wiped out.

Either delete email messages from the service regularly. If you need to keep messages, have another account and forward/move them to that account.

If you use a particular email address in your ads, LE can, and will, gain access to it. However they would have to first find the other account and then prove that it was used in the commission of a crime. Hard enough to do that it likely isn't worth their while unless you are running some huge prostitution ring.

#3 is OK, but (and I might get flack for this) trusting anyone else with providing you a primary level of security, unless they are well trained in various security tactics, is just foolish.

#5 Bingo!

For the TLDR crowd: http://bit.ly/14WA4Zc