Unions are BAD! Because Our Employers Say So!

[gr8owl]

9 hours ago, sparkey600 said:

Nice trap.

I will answer "Hell YES!" 

Providers need representation like the rest of us wretches.  If the form a labor Union I'll pay their negotiated rate. I hope the do! It'd make a lot of things easier actually!

No trap, just a valid question whether you favor unions just as much when the dynamic is reversed - to the benefit of someone else at your expense.  Good on you that you favor both scenarios, not just one.  The idea of a strike or walkout though 

[Plot]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:01 AM, Admiral C said:

A noble idea, but one which cannot succeed. Mega-Corporations owned and run by the tiny number of Uber Billionaires will not permit it in their holdings and have unlimited power and wealth to stop it. Medium and smaller business are dying daily, unable to compete against "the giants". Unionizing them would just hasten their demise. The core root? With a global population of 7.8 billion, in order to feed, clothe, house (etc.) everyone, one of two things MUST happen. 1) The Billionaires must share their massive wealth, or 2) Everyone EXCEPT them must share and share alike, essentially eliminating the middle class by merging it with the poor to make all subsistence working poor. Seeing how it is the Billionaires who are making that choice, that's why # 2) is happening.....and make no mistake...it is happening BY DESIGN.

Labor History is what I focused on for my degree. I can assure you that people said much the same thing until the introduction in the National Labor Relations Act in 1935.  The National Assn. of Manufacturers and the US Chamber of Commerce immediately began trying to defang this legislation, but it still improved the lot of workers more than any piece of legislation before or since.   I think, it’s possible to give it its teeth back and restore the balance between worker and employer.

[Bit Banger]

My major problem with the NLRB is that it’s mostly government teeth standing behind unions.  If you’re an individual worker with labor issues, “Hmpf, get a union.”

[sparkey600]

This is laughable. Perhaps you misunderstood me.. You obviously have never been a TRADE Union member. I'm talking TRADE UNIONS, skilled crafts. People who build things for their take home pay. People that built America. Not some flunky shit head on an assembly line...That's a different animal and a very different argument with which I would probably side with you on..... I'm talking about Men and Women that work hard doing their craft every day.

No, it's not like that. There is no if you have been on the job X years you deserve a new machine, you are judged by your merit and skill of your craft. There is no senority that gets you a better gig or releases you from doing good work. I'm fammilure with CNC machines and I get where you are coming from, but my post is for Trade Unions because that's where I think many people can elevate themselves the most right now. Peace Bro......   

[Bit Banger]

6 hours ago, sparkey600 said:

This is laughable. Perhaps you misunderstood me.. You obviously have never been a TRADE Union member. I'm talking TRADE UNIONS, skilled crafts. People who build things for their take home pay. People that built America. Not some flunky shit head on an assembly line...That's a different animal and a very different argument with which I would probably side with you on..... I'm talking about Men and Women that work hard doing their craft every day.

No, it's not like that. There is no if you have been on the job X years you deserve a new machine, you are judged by your merit and skill of your craft. There is no senority that gets you a better gig or releases you from doing good work. I'm fammilure with CNC machines and I get where you are coming from, but my post is for Trade Unions because that's where I think many people can elevate themselves the most right now. Peace Bro......   

Back in the 60s I was a member of two different trade unions.  I don’t recall there being the issues I described, but we were with pre-war (WWII) machines.

But in the 70s when running a CNC job shop, classmates at CNC school(s) described the problems in their union shops when the machines were introduced. I had an ‘old school’ machinist I had to let go (*) because he couldn’t handle the changes CNC brought to the job.  Granted, from the 80s onward I kept the grease from under my finger nails as a worker bee software engineer.

 

(*) The most difficult task of management.  One of the reasons I never wanted to be more than the tech leader of a team.

[Bit Banger]

One of things I could never understand about unions: 

Why would the Teamsters organize a candy factory?

[ilovewomen]

2 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

One of things I could never understand about unions: 

Why would the Teamsters organize a candy factory?

Teamsters want to organize every place they can.

In fact, back in the early 60’s, Jimmy Hoffa offered offered a LARGE sum of money to a Nascar driver (Curtis Turner) get the nascar drivers organized into a union.  Bill France shut that down quickly by holding a drivers meeting and telling them if they ever tried organizing, they would never drive NASCAR again. He also banned Curtis for life ( that lasted about 3-4 year).

Another attempt was made in 2014. I believe Denny Hamlin was involved in that one.

An attempt was made at organizing the guys in our shop 20 years ago. When the vote took place, the union did not get a single vote, including from the the guy instrumental in the organization attempt.

So unions will attempt to organize everywhere.

[sparkey600]

16 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Back in the 60s I was a member of two different trade unions.  I don’t recall there being the issues I described, but we were with pre-war (WWII) machines.

But in the 70s when running a CNC job shop, classmates at CNC school(s) described the problems in their union shops when the machines were introduced. I had an ‘old school’ machinist I had to let go (*) because he couldn’t handle the changes CNC brought to the job.  Granted, from the 80s onward I kept the grease from under my finger nails as a worker bee software engineer.

 

(*) The most difficult task of management.  One of the reasons I never wanted to be more than the tech leader of a team.

Now day's there is SO much pressure from the Non Union segment, it makes me sick, it's like a race to the bottom of the ocean and once you have reached it, you have to start digging a hole to get a job. I've often wondered why working class people would settle for lower (much lower) wages for doing the same thing as the Union trades? I work VERY hard and endure more stress than I should trying to bid jobs and keep some people I care a great deal about employed 12 months a year. All I really care about is my commitment to the workers that rely on me to keep them employed, it's really a very thankless job, but one I happen to love. That's why I preach "UNIONS" when people on here say they're getting under paid or outright screwed by their employers, because they ALL deserve so much better.

Me and you? I think we understand one another. You've been through what I've just described and it's not fun in the least. 

Have a good evening Bro......

[sparkey600]

13 hours ago, ilovewomen said:

Teamsters want to organize every place they can.

In fact, back in the early 60’s, Jimmy Hoffa offered offered a LARGE sum of money to a Nascar driver (Curtis Turner) get the nascar drivers organized into a union.  Bill France shut that down quickly by holding a drivers meeting and telling them if they ever tried organizing, they would never drive NASCAR again. He also banned Curtis for life ( that lasted about 3-4 year).

Another attempt was made in 2014. I believe Denny Hamlin was involved in that one.

An attempt was made at organizing the guys in our shop 20 years ago. When the vote took place, the union did not get a single vote, including from the the guy instrumental in the organization attempt.

So unions will attempt to organize everywhere.

You're talking about the early 60's? What? really?

Unfortunately, the Teamsters are going broke from all of the Mexican competition running trucks from Mexico to the good old USA non stop. It used to be that the Mexican truckers would have to drop off their cargo in Texas, and a Teamster trucker with a US or State inspected semi would then pick up the load for delivery. State inspected, safe and sound. But that's EXPENSIVE...So why not let Mexican trucks deliver the same load to the point of destination?? It's cheaper you know.... One of the old NAFTA bargaining rules most people didn't hear about, Why would we, we are all in a coma. Government knows best for us right? 

So they're paying their retiree's about 40% less than they agree to, I don't have to say this didn't go over well. Law suites and the like. Once again THE TEAMSTERS ARE PAYING THIER REITIREES 40% LESS THAN THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GET!!!!! Would this piss you off? 

I'm not an expert here but I'm guessing they are trying to bring in some new businesses to try to fill in the very large gap...And of course they are trying to take care of they're Retirees  which is more than I can say for the average employer.

Sorry you missed out in organizing 20 years ago. You by my calculations would have over 700K in your annuity right now.

[sparkey600]

16 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

One of things I could never understand about unions: 

Why would the Teamsters organize a candy factory?

I don't have any idea unless than to possible help their retirees?

[Bit Banger]

29 minutes ago, sparkey600 said:

...

So they're paying their retiree's about 40% less than they agree to, I don't have to say this didn't go over well. Law suites and the like. Once again THE TEAMSTERS ARE PAYING THIER REITIREES 40% LESS THAN THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GET!!!!! Would this piss you off? ....

I’d wager that some of those promises were made when interest rates were in the mid-teens.  I recall getting CDs at 13-14%.  Today you’re lucky to get over 1%.  You can’t get 6-8% ROI if you’re risk adverse.
 

Yes, NAFTA and other global trade agreements are hurting the American blue collar middle class.  Look at all the manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.  Yes, earlier I blamed unions, but that’s not the only issue.  Today’s demand for immediate ROI, bean counters driving industry instead on engineers, cause corporations to push for these treaties allowing them access to lower cost labor pools.  It doesn’t help that our corporate tax rates are among the highest in the world. (No, corporations don’t pay taxes, but they can only pass so much on to their consumers before they fail to compete in the global market.)

Edited June 7, 2021 by Bit Banger

[ilovewomen]

8 hours ago, sparkey600 said:

You're talking about the early 60's? What? really?

Unfortunately, the Teamsters are going broke from all of the Mexican competition running trucks from Mexico to the good old USA non stop. It used to be that the Mexican truckers would have to drop off their cargo in Texas, and a Teamster trucker with a US or State inspected semi would then pick up the load for delivery. State inspected, safe and sound. But that's EXPENSIVE...So why not let Mexican trucks deliver the same load to the point of destination?? It's cheaper you know.... One of the old NAFTA bargaining rules most people didn't hear about, Why would we, we are all in a coma. Government knows best for us right? 

So they're paying their retiree's about 40% less than they agree to, I don't have to say this didn't go over well. Law suites and the like. Once again THE TEAMSTERS ARE PAYING THIER REITIREES 40% LESS THAN THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GET!!!!! Would this piss you off? 

I'm not an expert here but I'm guessing they are trying to bring in some new businesses to try to fill in the very large gap...And of course they are trying to take care of they're Retirees  which is more than I can say for the average employer.

Sorry you missed out in organizing 20 years ago. You by my calculations would have over 700K in your annuity right now.

Actually, I'm management.  I didn't miss out on organizing.  But when all your employees vote no to organizing, you have to be doing something right by them.

But when you pay your employees a competitive wage and benefits, they will be loyal to you and work hard for you.  If they had voted yes, that would have been okay as well.

I brought up the 60's reference and Nascar as way to show that Unions will try and organize everywhere.

While I am not a union supporter, I support you.

[mustang]

While I am NOT a glutton for abuse, I have just this observation ........ Unions, in general supported Biden.  Biden policies have eliminated a pipeline, oil exploration and driven Ford to move a rather large project from the U.S to Mexico.  How is that good for the members?  It appears to me that union leaders are taking care of themselves and could care less about their members.  How about the actions of the teachers unions?

[sparkey600]

14 hours ago, ilovewomen said:

Actually, I'm management.  I didn't miss out on organizing.  But when all your employees vote no to organizing, you have to be doing something right by them.

But when you pay your employees a competitive wage and benefits, they will be loyal to you and work hard for you.  If they had voted yes, that would have been okay as well.

I brought up the 60's reference and Nascar as way to show that Unions will try and organize everywhere.

While I am not a union supporter, I support you.

You get my UTMOST Respect for taking care of your workers!

Not a lot of companies do that and that's the reason Unions exist. Carry on bro. Good for you and your team!

[sparkey600]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:54 AM, gr8owl said:

No trap, just a valid question whether you favor unions just as much when the dynamic is reversed - to the benefit of someone else at your expense.  Good on you that you favor both scenarios, not just one.  The idea of a strike or walkout though 

I'd respect the provider's Union to do what they'd like 100%

[sparkey600]

12 hours ago, mustang said:

While I am NOT a glutton for abuse, I have just this observation ........ Unions, in general supported Biden.  Biden policies have eliminated a pipeline, oil exploration and driven Ford to move a rather large project from the U.S to Mexico.  How is that good for the members?  It appears to me that union leaders are taking care of themselves and could care less about their members.  How about the actions of the teachers unions?

I guess if you subscribe to anti  global warming, the destruction of our Planet, or if you think it's all a bunch of bull shit that might lean you away from Democrats...

If you might respect the science, you might feel a little bit differently?

Of course Unions support Biden....Biden supports Unions....easy math right there. I have to add Trump is the dumbest ass Pres we've ever had. I'm shocked at the level of support he has and STILL has in the Republican Party after all the dumb ass shit he said or did. I remember years ago I was a Republican  would have never supported Trump because of his ability to divide us so much.

[Strange_Ice]

My very limited experience with union workers is that they are lazy with no sense of urgency to get the job done... they take their time at their own pace without a care and god forbid they work any overtime whether the job that needs to be done is done or not, leaving you hanging in the meantime ("oh we have to leave cause it's been 8 hours, we have another job to do tomorrow somewhere else, but we might be back to finish in a few days"). And sorry but I've learned that the REAL money is made on overtime, just saying.....

[mustang]

10 hours ago, sparkey600 said:

I guess if you subscribe to anti  global warming, the destruction of our Planet, or if you think it's all a bunch of bull shit that might lean you away from Democrats...

If you might respect the science, you might feel a little bit differently?

Of course Unions support Biden....Biden supports Unions....easy math right there. I have to add Trump is the dumbest ass Pres we've ever had. I'm shocked at the level of support he has and STILL has in the Republican Party after all the dumb ass shit he said or did. I remember years ago I was a Republican  would have never supported Trump because of his ability to divide us so much.

Respect the science ...... science that says a heartbeat is life, the science that says chromosomes determine gender, the science that says males are stronger than females, or the science and history that shows the the earths climate has been changing forever???

 

[gr8owl]

10 hours ago, mustang said:

Respect the science ...... science that says a heartbeat is life, the science that says chromosomes determine gender, the science that says males are stronger than females, or the science and history that shows the the earths climate has been changing forever???

 

Sadly we are collectively (BOTH sides - dims and oranges) attempting to turn "science" into sound bites and slogans. Most fervently by those who know the least about it.  Science is, well, complicated  For instance in the sound bite points you mention:

a heartbeat is life - sperm are alive too, so should you stop carelessly pitching it inside used condoms?  So "pro-life" sounds great but which life, what circumstance, effecting who, is it based upon religion that the government is not supposed to establish ...... complicated.  But both parties will keep it going to stir their bases - one of those "problems" both sides intentionally keep going..

chromosomes determine gender - ummmm, not so fast.  Estimates are around 1.7% of population being born as "intersex".  We are talking literal physical bodies that do not conform to "standard" male and female.  Here's a link to basic info on one part of the subject, ambiguous genitalia.  There are many other situations where it is not that simple - from birth having exterior organs that appear male but internal that are female, only becoming apparent as late as puberty.  Yes, it happens quite naturally, just not commonly enough for most people to realize.  But again, it is complicated, gender is not always black and white, even physically without even going into "identify as ...."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273

males are stronger than females, - as long as we are talking athletic strength and prowess, pretty much true.  But also dependent on level of testosterone and estrogen in either and levels can and do vary greatly.  Oh, and many transitions involve major tinkering with hormone levels, so ....... Damn, also complicated

climate has been changing forever - Quite true.  And every major study, measurement and observation right now says it is getting warmer world wide.  That part is beyond dispute, at least on a factual, data backed basis.  How much is due to human activities?  It is OBVIOUS that there is some contribution by human activities, exact amount i do not think anyone knows  Most of the  consequences of it continuing to warm are pretty bad.  So yes, the worldwide climate does change but if we can either push it the right direction with our activities, or if we can change our behavior to slow down the change if it is heading a bad direction - why would we not??  What difference does it make that it has changed in the distant past without man?  If you are saying just let it do its thing are you OK with everything north of about Denver being under a slab of ice hundreds of feet thick while a nice forest is in antartica or maybe Colorado a drier version of the Sahara?  No? So why don't we do what we can to bend it to our needs?  Why argue that it isn't changing and make jokes about global warming every time it snows etc. ?? Pointless political bickering does absolutely nothing worth accomplishing.

 

[Alex Majors]

22 hours ago, Strange_Ice said:

My very limited experience with union workers is that they are lazy with no sense of urgency to get the job done... they take their time at their own pace without a care and god forbid they work any overtime whether the job that needs to be done is done or not, leaving you hanging in the meantime ("oh we have to leave cause it's been 8 hours, we have another job to do tomorrow somewhere else, but we might be back to finish in a few days"). And sorry but I've learned that the REAL money is made on overtime, just saying.....

I have known a few union employees. A friend of a friend was a UAW worker who spent more time off the job than on.  He used every clause in the union contract to do this. All he had to do was park every third car off the line. He would use his sick time, vacation time, medical leave, strike time, etc.  In 4yrs he spent almost 70 percent off the clock. He had a shady doctor write him letters. The guy was overweight and would spend about everyday at strip clubs drinking. A regular company would have fired him. So there is a reason for why cars are expensive. He was getting almost full pay for doing nothing.

I knew a union electrician who hurt himself at home.  Then went to work the next day and faked a fall off a ladder. He got everything paid for and his full pay till he healed. Eventually he rolled his vehicle after a night out and then got full disability. Got his union pension at like 42

I knew a TWA union machinist. He would show off all these things he made on the job for his house. Like his bbq tool set that cost the airline several hundred dollars. TWA went broke. 

Last a union cop who shot someone. Not sure if it was excessive force or what.  The city wanted to fire him but the union saved his ass and got him a full pension after 13 yrs on the job at age 34. He has  been retired longer than he ever worked.

It is people like these , that in my mind make unions look bad. Unions should do more to get rid of these people, instead of protecting them.

[Strange_Ice]

59 minutes ago, Alex Majors said:

I have known a few union employees. A friend of a friend was a UAW worker who spent more time off the job than on.  He used every clause in the union contract to do this. All he had to do was park every third car off the line. He would use his sick time, vacation time, medical leave, strike time, etc.  In 4yrs he spent almost 70 percent off the clock. He had a shady doctor write him letters. The guy was overweight and would spend about everyday at strip clubs drinking. A regular company would have fired him. So there is a reason for why cars are expensive. He was getting almost full pay for doing nothing.

I knew a union electrician who hurt himself at home.  Then went to work the next day and faked a fall off a ladder. He got everything paid for and his full pay till he healed. Eventually he rolled his vehicle after a night out and then got full disability. Got his union pension at like 42

I knew a TWA union machinist. He would show off all these things he made on the job for his house. Like his bbq tool set that cost the airline several hundred dollars. TWA went broke. 

Last a union cop who shot someone. Not sure if it was excessive force or what.  The city wanted to fire him but the union saved his ass and got him a full pension after 13 yrs on the job at age 34. He has  been retired longer than he ever worked.

It is people like these , that in my mind make unions look bad. Unions should do more to get rid of these people, instead of protecting them.

(Again this is coming from VERY limited knowledge so it might be wrong) but why would they do that when it's the company that loses money not the union. As long as the union is getting their fee and still making money why would they care? As pointed out above they dont care about the company it's all about the employees and helping them get over on the big bad company making all the money..... 

[Bit Banger]

8 hours ago, Strange_Ice said:

… As pointed out above they dont care about the company it's all about the employees and helping them get over on the big bad company making all the money..... 

The ‘big bad company’?  You mean the goose that laid the golden egg?  The company that put up the resources for the employees to have meaningful, or at least profitable, work?  Kill the goose and join the soup kitchen line.

The company’s health should be a vital concern of the union.  Trimming waste and non-productive employees increases the company’s profit, making more available for expansion (more employees) and negotiations (higher wages).  Every employee who ‘gets one over on the company’ steals from his co-workers.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Bit Banger

[briscorp1]

I like the idea of a United Carnal Provider's Union (call it the UCPU, which would of course mean first that sex work had been legalized in this country, which should have happened a long time ago). It would utilize leverage and collective bargaining power to provide a competitive wage that kept up with the rate of inflation (which would of course mean that Congress passed that wage-requirement into law, which should have happened a long time ago), safe/humane working conditions, and legal recourse to the redress of grievances stemming from abusive clients, unethical competitors, and exploitative management. Not too much to ask for our lovely ladies! Of course the UCPU, like any union, would become vulnerable to turning into a top-heavy, cumbersome, inflexible, and convoluted bureaucracy mostly interested in preserving/expanding its own political power, resulting in increasingly--and unsustainably--rising costs, uncompetitive wages, and bloated retirement pensions. These, if they came to pass, would lead to hobbyists and pimps flocking overseas in search of "cheaper hookers" while crying with full throats to abolish the UCPU as "Socialist" and "Un-American," and for a return to "the good old days" of Robber-Baron-style predatory/exploitative capitalism. Millions of providers, having lost the job security and protection the UCPU offered them, would end up once again living month to month, subject to the whims of puritanical lawmakers and prevailing political gales, struggling with the rest of the country's huddled masses to supplement their income as wage-slaves to billionaires and banksters while fomenting social/political unrest and finally revolution. At some point after this, when the shards of commerce had been glued back together with blood and sawdust, and with much harrumphing ("I didn't get a 'harrumph' outta dat guy!"), the novel and controversial notion of workers' rights would surface once more, and the UCPU would be resuscitated to ensure the socio-economic well-being of those lovely ladies who provide for a living...

And so it would go, same as it ever was... C'est la vie!

[sparkey600]

On 6/9/2021 at 2:12 PM, Bit Banger said:

The ‘big bad company’?  You mean the goose that laid the golden egg?  The company that put up the resources for the employees to have meaningful, or at least profitable, work?  Kill the goose and join the soup kitchen line.

The company’s health should be a vital concern of the union.  Trimming waste and non-productive employees increases the company’s profit, making more available for expansion (more employees) and negotiations (higher wages).  Every employee who ‘gets one over on the company’ steals from his co-workers.

Bit, couldn't agree with you more on this.

"standing up on the soap box" The Company that pay's you is not most likely the problem......They are just not informed......

Union employers in the trade unions pay in excess of 20 dollars an hour MORE in pension and benefits than their non Union competitors. Why? because they know that their Union employees can out preform their lesser trained non Union workers. This is why Unions are doing great things in the workers world. No, it's not about the companies you folks work for, it's about Unions working for all of us to make a decent standard of wages and a decent retirement. You will not get this working for wages alone. Union rep.  is they way you can change your life and the life of your family. All workers are more than welcome to join in any of their trad's Unions, just sign up and make about 20 extra bucks an hour. You will be welcome as A Brother or a Sister and you will see your pension GROW for your retirement. Best of all, you won't have to ask you're employer for a raise, hat in hand. It will be NEGOCIATED for you by your UNIUON. But one thing I have to let you know here....

You don't have to "kill" yourselves on a day to day basis...........but you WILL be asks to give your 100% everyday,

Unions are looking for the 100% Trades people that want to have a better future.

Enough said..

[Phil-anderer]

Interesting dialogue... I know little about any of it, and only casual knowledge of nursing union stuff, but never really paid much attention.  Nurses don't get paid enough, nor do teachers.

[Bit Banger]

47 minutes ago, Phil-anderer said:

Interesting dialogue... I know little about any of it, and only casual knowledge of nursing union stuff, but never really paid much attention.  Nurses don't get paid enough, nor do teachers.

One of the traps for teachers’ compensation is to remember that they typically work 9-10 months, not 12, for that salary and retirement package.

My problem with teachers’ compensation negotiations is that the management side does not have any skin in the game.  It’s not their money, they are appointees (not elected), and will be long gone when the promises of retirement benefits fail.

[gr8owl]

20 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

One of the traps for teachers’ compensation is to remember that they typically work 9-10 months, not 12, for that salary and retirement package.

My problem with teachers’ compensation negotiations is that the management side does not have any skin in the game.  It’s not their money, they are appointees (not elected), and will be long gone when the promises of retirement benefits fail.

The school board IS elected and has to approve any contract with the teachers.  The superintendent and his staff are appointed/hired and may do the negotiation, but the approval lies with elected board members.  And the money is every bit as much theirs as yours in that they too pay taxes - all of those involved do.  Only ones that don't pay taxes are the modern robber barons - Bezos, Musk, Trump, etc.  So far as I am aware, if they actually own property even they pay property taxes, although with many, many games played with the appraised value.  In Colorado school districts are bound by state constitution to have a balanced annual budget.  So the bigger the raise management recommends/negotiates with the teachers the less money there is for their own benefits and raises.  I would say they have skin in the game.  Next?

[sparkey600]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:01 AM, Admiral C said:

A noble idea, but one which cannot succeed. Mega-Corporations owned and run by the tiny number of Uber Billionaires will not permit it in their holdings and have unlimited power and wealth to stop it. Medium and smaller business are dying daily, unable to compete against "the giants". Unionizing them would just hasten their demise. The core root? With a global population of 7.8 billion, in order to feed, clothe, house (etc.) everyone, one of two things MUST happen. 1) The Billionaires must share their massive wealth, or 2) Everyone EXCEPT them must share and share alike, essentially eliminating the middle class by merging it with the poor to make all subsistence working poor. Seeing how it is the Billionaires who are making that choice, that's why # 2) is happening.....and make no mistake...it is happening BY DESIGN.

So the bottom line with you is, you'd be willing to work for less money than collective bargaining can give you?

I've been in a union for over thirty five years and I've heard it all "they collect union dues" they make you come to meetings" they make you pay to be a member" blah blah blah. In my industry we make over $15 per hour over our non union competitors and the benefits are much better as well. When I retire at 62 yes 62 not 65 or recently changed to 67 I will be making more money than I am TODAY.  And that's before social security. Oh, I need to mention I had to pay ZERO into this. The Pension was negotiated on my behalf by my union. So, there it is. No Employer in the world wants the average working stiff to know this. They tell you unions are bad "they collect union dues"  "they make you come to meetings" Actually they do not make you come to meetings, but that's where members get a voice on the direction of the negotiated wages and benefit packages get distributed  so it's probably a good idea to attend to let your voice be heard. Or like you just said, bow down to the Mega Corporations and the Uber Billionaires who would be NO WHERE without LABOR!  It's so sad that the average worker doesn't feel like they make a difference to the companies they work for or have no voice in their future. That's why unions were formed, to give workers a voice in their future. Trust me on this, unions are NOT a thing of the past, but a a conduit to the future, ensuring that workers have a say on how they live on a good weekly pay check and how they provide for themselves into retirement and beyond.