Is it cheating when ... ?

[Bit Banger]

The JoDoe's question thread brought these thoughts to mind. 

Is it cheating when ... ?

- you're single, but dating platonically

- you're single, but dating "with benefits"

- you're not married to your POSSLQ

- you jack/jill off

- sexual fidelity was not part of your vows

- you watch pron

- you go to a strip club to watch

- you go to a strip club for lap dances

- you get FBSM w/o happy endings

- you get FBSM w/ happy endings

- you visit a Dom w/o happy endings

- you explain in detail to your SO you escort visits

- {add your own 'what if?'}

Edited November 29, 2015 by Bit Banger
Spelling

[Lucy Kitten]

Whatever your partner decides is cheating is cheating. There is no great definition and not anything that all could agree on.  When you're dealing with human emotions anything can be considered cheating. 

[pfunk]

10 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Whatever your partner decides is cheating is cheating. There is no great definition and not anything that all could agree on.  When you're dealing with human emotions anything can be considered cheating. 

I have to agree here. It has a lot to do with feeling betrayed. Once you've done something your spouse sees as a betrayal, you've crossed the line. 

It could be kissing, flirting, lunch together alone, sharing secrets, phone sex, OR sex with strangers, affairs, prostitution, or just lying.

Unless you both have discussions about it before, and after,  and ensure all is ok, and no one is hurt, it's questionable.

I've cheated. it wasn't right, or fair to my SO. I hope I never do it again. 

 

 

[Lucy Kitten]

30 minutes ago, pfunk said:

I have to agree here. It has a lot to do with feeling betrayed. Once you've done something your spouse sees as a betrayal, you've crossed the line. 

It could be kissing, flirting, lunch together alone, sharing secrets, phone sex, OR sex with strangers, affairs, prostitution, or just lying.

Unless you both have discussions about it before, and after,  and ensure all is ok, and no one is hurt, it's questionable.

I've cheated. it wasn't right, or fair to my SO. I hope I never do it again. 

 

 

Betrayal is the worst. The act itself may be forgivable but the betrayal sometimes isn't.  It's less about what my partner did and more about why and how they did it.

[gr8owl]

1 hour ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Whatever your partner decides is cheating is cheating. There is no great definition and not anything that all could agree on.  When you're dealing with human emotions anything can be considered cheating. 

Preposterous.  I had the misfortune of being married to an over the top, jealous beyond all reason female that saw even the slightest notice of an attractive lady to be cheating.  So I do not buy this statement at all.

So what is my definition you ask (OK technically you didn't, but .....) If you are doing something she does not know about, that you are sure you cannot tell her about, that you continue to do anyway ...... yep, you are cheating.  Is it the least of all available evils in some circumstances?  Perhaps.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

...... yep, you are cheating.  Is it the least of all available evils in some circumstances?  Perhaps.

Do not attempt this at home. This kind of tortured rationalization should only be performed by professionals under tightly controlled conditions.

[pfunk]

55 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

If you are doing something she does not know about, that you are sure you cannot tell her about, that you continue to do anyway ...... yep, you are cheating.  

I fail to see the difference between this statement, and what Lucy said. ???

[BadBoy]

Yeah, we bad.

[gr8owl]

12 minutes ago, pfunk said:

I fail to see the difference between this statement, and what Lucy said. ???

What Lucy said is that ANYTHING the little woman thinks is cheating IS cheating.  That could include: taking a second glance at a hot female on the street, any viewing of porn, any contact even on a friends only basis with other women, being flattered and playing along briefly with active flirting from another woman, harmless business lunch with a female  ... the list goes on.  Been there.  No attempt to conceal what-so-ever.  Plenty of discussion but she considered it cheating.

What I said was, well, what I said.  Active efforts to conceal on my part knowing damn good and well how she would feel about it and continuing to do it in secret anyway.  Thought the distinction would be pretty clear.

Edited November 29, 2015 by gr8owl
fat finger spelling

[gr8owl]

20 minutes ago, Raoul said:

Do not attempt this at home. This kind of tortured rationalization should only be performed by professionals under tightly controlled conditions.

LOL, you crack me up, Raoul.  But seriously if after all attempts at conversation and change the choices are: cheat, divorce, break SO heart, do without sex forever more ........ you tell me.  Or more importantly yourself if you ever find yourself in this sad position.  All I was getting at.  Each to their own.

[Lucy Kitten]

45 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

What Lucy said is that ANYTHING the little woman thinks is cheating IS cheating.  That could include: taking a second glance at a hot female on the street, any viewing of porn, any contact even on a friends only basis with other women, being flattered and playing along briefly with active flirting from another woman, harmless business lunch with a female  ... the list goes on.  Been there.  No attempt to conceal what-so-ever.  Plenty of discussion but she considered it cheating.

What I said was, well, what I said.  Active efforts to conceal on my part knowing damn good and well how she would feel about it and continuing to do it in secret anyway.  Thought the distinction would be pretty clear.

I didn't say the little woman. I purposefully used the word partner because that goes for both sexes. Sorry you had the misfortune of marrying someone like that but the statement holds true. If they think it's cheating it is because they feel betrayed and it doesn't matter what it is that happened. Sometimes it may be trivial or irrational but you can't say that an emotion is wrong. They're not your emotional reactions, you may disagree but again refer to my original statement. Anything that your partner feels is cheating is cheating and there is no point in arguing around it. You may not agree with they think is cheating but it doesn't change the feeling of the person who feels cheated on.

It's the motivation behind the act not the act itself. Why are you flirting with someone other than your spouse? Why are you having "harmless" business lunches with other women? Why the one on one? Out in the open doesn't make it not cheating for your spouse because you don't think it's cheating. If your wife was the jealous type why would you do any of those things?

Edited November 29, 2015 by Lucy Kitten

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

Or more importantly yourself if you ever find yourself in this sad position.  All I was getting at.  Each to their own.

Yes indeed. I am a card-carrying professional rationalizer.

With the anonymity of the internet and among this group of similarly minded folks, I can say in all honesty that I have no defense, no excuse, no story of pain and loss, nothing. I wanted what i wanted and that was all. I am a liar and a cheat and bad guy.  

Now give me a minute and I'm sure I can come up with something to explain how what I did was justified.

Okay...this may take more than a minute.

[Lucy Kitten]

1 hour ago, gr8owl said:

Preposterous.  I had the misfortune of being married to an over the top, jealous beyond all reason female that saw even the slightest notice of an attractive lady to be cheating.  So I do not buy this statement at all.

So what is my definition you ask (OK technically you didn't, but .....) If you are doing something she does not know about, that you are sure you cannot tell her about, that you continue to do anyway ...... yep, you are cheating.  Is it the least of all available evils in some circumstances?  Perhaps.

Justification is the evil. Cheating because it seems to be the least evil is lazy.  These are the reasons I will not marry. No one takes their vows seriously but love to use marriage as a defense for bad choices.

[gr8owl]

8 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

I didn't say the little woman. I purposefully used the word partner because that goes for both sexes. Sorry you had the misfortune of marrying someone like that but the statement holds true. If they think it's cheating it is because they feel betrayed and it doesn't matter what it is that happened. Sometimes it may be trivial or irrational but you can't say that an emotion is wrong. They're not your emotional reactions, you may disagree but again refer to my original statement. Anything that your partner feels is cheating is cheating and there is no point in arguing around it. You may not agree with they think is cheating but it doesn't change the feeling of the person who feels cheated on.

It's the motivation behind the act not the act itself. On this I agree wholeheartedly. Why are you flirting with someone other than your spouse? I meant flirting directed AT me, not initiated BY me. Why are you having "harmless" business lunches with other women? Um, for legitimate business reasons. More than once with women I would not REMOTELY consider as a sex partner. Why the one on one? Out in the open doesn't make it not cheating for your spouse because you don't think it's cheating. If your wife was the jealous type why would you do any of those things?  Because her irrational perception of the world - and me - could not be allowed to govern all things in my life.

I respectfully disagree - and note and appreciate it is possible to do so respectfully. Just because someone else PERCEIVES it does not make it reality.  I agree the hurt on her part only relies on her perception.  But I refuse to let someone else's erroneous perception become my reality and to cease doing literally harmless activities just because she sees it as something it is not.  A little trust goes a long way.  Without it you have a steaming pile of ........

[gr8owl]

18 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Justification is the evil. Cheating because it seems to be the least evil is lazy.  These are the reasons I will not marry. No one takes their vows seriously but love to use marriage as a defense for bad choices.

Not trying to justify anything.  I am a big boy who has no problem admitting when I fuck up. Just trying to avoid the "everything is black or white" trap and fall into judging others whose circumstances I  know nothing of.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Whatever your partner decides is cheating is cheating. There is no great definition and not anything that all could agree on.  When you're dealing with human emotions anything can be considered cheating. 

This thread, and the one that spawned it, makes me very sad.  This post within this thread makes me especially sad.

This is an impossible standard to meet.  (Lucy, I'm not saying you are wrong, just, perhaps, that I don't like hearing the truth.)  What is worse, at least for my personal situation, is that this "truth" leaves me 3 options.....and 3 options only.

1) Live the rest of my life without sex.  I shall meet everyone's expectations:  My wife, my family, society at large.  I shall be utterly honorable.  And utterly unhappy.  I know, because I tried this for nearly 7 years.  You know, if I die in an accident (something that is not hard to arrange), I am worth well over a million dollars in insurance payments to my wife, alone.   I am worth far more to my wife dead, than alive.  Will they sing praises at my funeral?  Laud me for being an honorable man?  And if they do:  What is that worth?  Really?

2) Divorce my wife, solely for the reason of not having sex. How will that play out?  "Dear, I'm divorcing you.  I wanna fuck again."  I can promise that this conversation would cause a great deal of emotional pain to a highly religious woman.  She would feel guilty, and hurt, and betrayed, but I would again be "honorable" in many people's eyes.  Likewise, asking for permission is out of the question.  I know the result.  She would feel guilty, and hurt, and betrayed, but she would not grant permission.  Nor would she resume "marital relations,"  but she would feel even more guilty about that.   Why would I do this to the mother of my progeny?

3) Cheat.  This is the path I have chosen for the past several years.  I'm happy.  I no longer resent my wife.  But, yes, I'm a fucking cheater.  An asswipe.  The lowest possible kind of scum.   Do you, who enjoy making public judgments on other's life choices, really think that you can say things to me that I have not already said to myself in the long, dark, lonely reaches of the night?  And yet, here I am, on a hooker board, baring my soul for all to see because this is one of the few places I can go to discuss these things.  A place where, I thought, people understood.

Imagine my surprise that many of the ladies I have sought for solace, view me in the same light.    "MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN," they whisper in my ear.  "You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting."

 

[Lucy Kitten]

37 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

I respectfully disagree - and note and appreciate it is possible to do so respectfully. Just because someone else PERCEIVES it does not make it reality.  I agree the hurt on her part only relies on her perception.  But I refuse to let someone else's erroneous perception become my reality and to cease doing literally harmless activities just because she sees it as something it is not.  A little trust goes a long way.  Without it you have a steaming pile of ........

But see where the conflict happens just because you perceive it differently doesn't make it her reality. I never said it was logical or rational just that a person's feelings are valid. The bigger general discussion becomes muddled when try and relate our personal experiences to it. You have had issues with a person that have an affect on your opinions which is totally valid but it doesn't make the general argument invalid.

We all have trust issues and we should care about our partners trust issues. If not doing those things you think are harmless really help build trust in your relationship, why not do it? My partner likes to flip through my phone, it makes me feel not totally trusted but if it makes him feel better about me then I am for it. There is nothing to hide.

[Lucy Kitten]

31 minutes ago, Laplace said:

This thread, and the one that spawned it, makes me very sad.  This post within this thread makes me especially sad.

This is an impossible standard to meet.  (Lucy, I'm not saying you are wrong, just, perhaps, that I don't like hearing the truth.)  What is worse, at least for my personal situation, is that this "truth" leaves me 3 options.....and 3 options only.

1) Live the rest of my life without sex.  I shall meet everyone's expectations:  My wife, my family, society at large.  I shall be utterly honorable.  And utterly unhappy.  I know, because I tried this for nearly 7 years.  You know, if I die in an accident (something that is not hard to arrange), I am worth well over a million dollars in insurance payments to my wife, alone.   I am worth far more to my wife dead, than alive.  Will they sing praises at my funeral?  Laud me for being an honorable man?  And if they do:  What is that worth?  Really?

2) Divorce my wife, solely for the reason of not having sex. How will that play out?  "Dear, I'm divorcing you.  I wanna fuck again."  I can promise that this conversation would cause a great deal of emotional pain to a highly religious woman.  She would feel guilty, and hurt, and betrayed, but I would again be "honorable" in many people's eyes.  Likewise, asking for permission is out of the question.  I know the result.  She would feel guilty, and hurt, and betrayed, but she would not grant permission.  Nor would she resume "marital relations,"  but she would feel even more guilty about that.   Why would I do this to the mother of my progeny?

3) Cheat.  This is the path I have chosen for the past several years.  I'm happy.  I no longer resent my wife.  But, yes, I'm a fucking cheater.  An asswipe.  The lowest possible kind of scum.   Do you, who enjoy making public judgments on other's life choices, really think that you can say things to me that I have not already said to myself in the long, dark, lonely reaches of the night?  And yet, here I am, on a hooker board, baring my soul for all to see because this is one of the few places I can go to discuss these things.  A place where, I thought, people understood.

Imagine my surprise that many of the ladies I have sought for solace, view me in the same light.    "MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN," they whisper in my ear.  "You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting."

 

Not to go back to that thread but I think the OP just brought to the surface a lot of things you guys would rather not face. Guilt is a son of a bitch and the OP of that thread took a lot of that misplaced guilt. I don't think questioning the why means there is any lack of sympathy. But even I wonder about the whys. You can't help but think about it when you are regularly hanging out with guys with wedding bands on. I think about how unbelievably furious I would be with my partner if I found out he was seeing escorts and talking about why he saw them on the internet.

I have the luxury of a very different perspective. I do what I do and it's hard on relationships but it makes communication and trust paramount. I am thankful for being able to have that perspective but I wish at times that wasn't what it took for me to realize what is important in relationships and partners. Trust and communication should be that important to everyone. Not trying to imply that they are not important just trying to imply that in my situation it's mandatory.

Doing what you need to do to preserve your happiness and your future sometimes comes at the expense of others. I would venture a guess and say that most, if they really sat down and contemplated would rather suffer the heart break and betrayal than continue to be with someone who doesn't meet all their needs. Sex is obviously important, that's why we're here. So removing yourself from a sexless marriage shouldn't be such an awful thing. It shouldn't be associated with so much guilt.

The mother of your progeny is not the same woman you share a bed with.That's why we have all those stupid greeting cards. Are you not both a father and a husband? It's a hat that's worn. As a product of divorce I can tell you I was relieved. My parents were happy for like the first time ever in my life. Now as an adult with a sex life I respect their decision even more. I don't want to be them, I don't want to be in your shoes. What I want from life is important and I will not allow guilt to keep me from living a fulfilling life.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Lucy Kitten

[pfunk]

42 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Doing what you need to do to preserve your happiness and your future sometimes comes at the expense of others. I would venture a guess and say that most, if they really sat down and contemplated would rather suffer the heart break and betrayal than continue to be with someone who doesn't meet all their needs.

Thank you for this post!

I've cheated in two long term relationships, and consequently ended them, because I was not happy. Yes, it's selfish, but it's also the right thing to do, rather than continue lying, and hiding everything from my SO. Both times I left everything, we had earned together, behind. It seemed fair. That's my opinion.

Personally, I will never commit to a monogamous relationship again; I can't do it. I also will not lie to my SO about anything. 

[Tamelea Anderson]

I'm new here so what I say probably doesn't count, but in my opinion if you have to cover up or lie about your actions, it would probably be classified as cheating in some way. If you find it necessary to intentionally withhold information from your partner,  your aware what your doing is wrong. If that's the case, there's no reason for you to even ask this question, this is probably not the best place to ask and it's not a good thing for any type of relationship.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Tamelea Anderson
crct writing

[Bit Banger]

6 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Whatever your partner decides is cheating is cheating. ...

Lucy, I think you got it half right. 

Cheating is what you & your partner(s) agree is cheating. 

As gr8owl says, why should one member of the relationship dictate the terms.  My 1st wife was the jealous type; I couldn't even go on a camping trip with the guys (all male!) w/o a scene. My 2nd wife cheated on me - w/bottles of Amaretto; it's not always about sex.

There is a 4th option, Laplace. Tell all, scorching the earth around you with recriminations. Remember, "... what we have left undone." is also a sin. But that will likely hurt your partner, possibly leading to #2 - Divorce. As both a child & parent of divorce, I grok that this is not a good option for all those involved.

Pfunk, like you I doubt I will ever agree to a monogamous relationship again. I'm looking for a new partner: sex & polyamory are some of my criteria. 

I suppose the bottom line here (and the reason I started this thread) is that the definition of cheating should be a matter for those involved in the relationship, not really subject to the judgement of third parties.

[Guest]

Is it cheating if you use a food chopper?  I peeled and chopped two entire bulbs of garlic today and my fingers are on fire!

Oh crap!  I thought this was the cooking thread.  My bad.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Riggo
Not the cooking thread!

[Tamelea Anderson]

your cute Riggo

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tamelea Anderson said:

your cute Riggo

Aww shucks ma'am.  

[bd5671]

8 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Whatever your partner decides is cheating is cheating. There is no great definition and not anything that all could agree on.  When you're dealing with human emotions anything can be considered cheating. 

Lucy, 

I agree. And the defining factor for me, is "Do I feel guilty afterwards?"... Guilt is the feeling you have done something wrong, hurt someone's feelings or caused someone else pain, either physical or emotional. Guilt, and it's cousin shame, should factor into any decision to stray outside of a relationship. How would you feel if it was done to you?...

[Guest]

By the way, based on the judging criteria used here on these boards, I have determined that I am a cheater.  It is tough being in a  polygamous relationship when it comes to my knives, but I do not believe I informed my meat cleaver of my digressions with the food chopper.  I did however inform my chef's knife, paring knife, utility knife as well as the boning knife.  The meat cleaver was my biggest concern, as if I upset it, the next post I made here would be in a much higher octave.  I bow to the court of judgement here and await my penance...

[Lucy Kitten]

5 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Lucy, I think you got it half right. 

Cheating is what you & your partner(s) agree is cheating. 

As gr8owl says, why should one member of the relationship dictate the terms.  My 1st wife was the jealous type; I couldn't even go on a camping trip with the guys (all male!) w/o a scene. My 2nd wife cheated on me - w/bottles of Amaretto; it's not always about sex.

There is a 4th option, Laplace. Tell all, scorching the earth around you with recriminations. Remember, "... what we have left undone." is also a sin. But that will likely hurt your partner, possibly leading to #2 - Divorce. As both a child & parent of divorce, I grok that this is not a good option for all those involved.

Pfunk, like you I doubt I will ever agree to a monogamous relationship again. I'm looking for a new partner: sex & polyamory are some of my criteria. 

I suppose the bottom line here (and the reason I started this thread) is that the definition of cheating should be a matter for those involved in the relationship, not really subject to the judgement of third parties.

It's not about dictating the terms, which is where Gr8owl loses it too. You make think it's trivial as fuck and maybe you're right but it's not up to you convince someone to feel something different. These days watching that show you love without your spouse is cheating, is it silly absolutely but again it's the act of betrayal. Maybe it's cheating maybe it's not but if that is the way a person feels then it is. You don't need to be in agreement with your partner, it would be ideal but not usually how it shakes out.

I think when you're part of a couple and someone feels betrayed their feelings do kinda trump those of the person who thinks they haven't made a mistake. These feelings are reactionary and it's sometimes difficult to predict how one might react to something. You may agree as partners about what's cheating until it happens then agreements are off the table and emotions take over. I may tell you I am cool with you going to strip clubs until I see you drooling over strippers, you may be cool with me casually flirting until you feel you're not getting the attention you deserve.

It may actually be cheating but it's how your actions are perceived. It may be frustrating but it doesn't change feelings. It really and truly isn't about dictating terms it's all about feelings. What cheating is varies from person to person. Making the only reasonable answer that it's cheating when you feel like it's cheating.

[Bit Banger]

I get that it's an emotional issue instead of a rational one, that feelings trump reason. 

But where is the sense of betrayal when one partner, for whatever reason, removes sex from the relationship. Is that a form of cheating? Of welching on 'the deal'?  How should the other partner(s) feel about that?

Granted, two wrongs do not make a right. But some here lay all the blame on the husband seeing escorts without acknowledging that his wife may have betrayed him first. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Bit Banger
Format

[JoDoe27]

@Bit Banger

As you said, two wrongs don't make a right. I don't think feel it's fair to anyone to be held a sexual hostage. It's ridiculous to remove such an important aspect of a relationship and to think your partner won't find an alternative means. It sucks even more when you have no say so and feel you have no control over it. Yes, I've been married, had those terribly long droughts and for the love of God know that cranky, irritable feelings.  But the thing is, we all make our own decisions and ultimately you're responsible for how you proceed. And it's not always easy or most favored outcome but we do have choices...they're just not always the ones we enjoy. 

I promise I'm not stirring shit here so bear with me. You said that it's a conversation between two people, those in the relationship as to what constitutes cheating. But what's been said here and the other thread was there were talks about a lack of sex, and then one individual in that two way conversation (I'm not picking anyone in particular just speaking hypothetically) decided to seek out their own avenues without the other partner knowing. It's like everything up to that point was discussed then it just fell off. I don't presume to know anything about anyone's situation beyond what's posted. 

[Danielle Rae]

1 hour ago, Bit Banger said:

I get that it's an emotional issue instead of a rational one, that feelings trump reason. 

But where is the sense of betrayal when one partner, for whatever reason, removes sex from the relationship. Is that a form of cheating? Of welching on 'the deal'?  How should the other partner(s) feel about that?

Granted, two wrongs do not make a right. But some here lay all the blame on the husband seeing escorts without acknowledging that his wife may have betrayed him first. 

Honestly, I think women for the most part are unaware of the crucial need men have for sex.  I don't think they are intentionally "withholding" to betray men.  A woman can love you with every ounce of her being and yet be perfectly content without ever having sex again.  It's not that big of a deal in our reality.  Which is why the whole  monogamy - marriage vows - etc. need to be revamped.   The differences of men and women are not understood or discussed or considered when taking on the "til death to us part"