Permission vs Tacit Approval (Opinion from the Ladies)

[pitbull]

this is an issue that can cut both ways some guys SO has lost their desire for sex but for some of us we have lost our desire for our SO. Make no mistake we still love them want them to be happy and safe and enjoy doing other things with them but sexual attraction is no longer there. For me it took years of seeing a once very sexy woman who enjoyed not only being pleased but also pleasing me to someone who stopped caring about her appearance and being very selfish in bed to drive me away. Now as the years go by she has gained a lot of weight and her style of dressing is very matronly. I can't get excited about her. There are nights I reach out to touch her thinking I should make the effort but I just don't want to. I kiss her on the cheek, massage her shoulders but beyond that there just isn't any desire. It's sad but sexual attraction isn't ever lasting. I don't want an affair so the hobby seems like the way to get sexual gratification without emotional ties

I never thought of that. Interesting indeed, and I feel for SD's situation. That is possibly a worse situation than the one I described.

I lust after my wife. Hell, I've actually had sexual dreams about her. How's that for bizarre? If she would even have sex with me just once a month, I would stop hobbying because my sex drive is actually low, relatively speaking. And yet, somehow, her drive is lower -- a lot lower, but hey, enough of my sob story.

SD: Do you think your wife would give "tacit approval" if she knew? I know my wife would not.

[SD1958]

I never thought of that. Interesting indeed, and I feel for SD's situation. That is possibly a worse situation than the one I described.

I lust after my wife. Hell, I've actually had sexual dreams about her. How's that for bizarre? If she would even have sex with me just once a month, I would stop hobbying because my sex drive is actually low, relatively speaking. And yet, somehow, her drive is lower -- a lot lower, but hey, enough of my sob story.

SD: Do you think your wife would give "tacit approval" if she knew? I know my wife would not.

First thanks for the sympathy I was afraid I would get flamed for my admission. To answer your question, No there would never be tacit approval. I know she is still interested in sex but she has told me it is more of a need to be satisfied but not to satisfy me. She feels the mere act of sexual intercourse should be enough for me. I've told her that as the years go by that men need more but she isn't willing to give in the oral sex category and she has made it clear she feels her current weight is what she will be for now on and I should except it. well as my long time friend "OK" but I'm just not attracted to that and yes I still work out and stay in shape.

So I hobby. The ladies I see are well reviewed and have never shown any inkling of outing me. This seems to be the best way to have enjoyable sex and not hurt my SO

[auldguy]

From the responses so far I would say that most guys who have admitted to having an SO would say that the SO is not stupid. It seems that a woman who is pretty smart would not miss the signs that her man is going somewhere else or his satisfaction. So if tacit approval is not the correct choice of words what is - benign neglect - situation blindness? Or are we all involved with dumb SOs? I don't think so.

[pitbull]

From the responses so far I would say that most guys who have admitted to having an SO would say that the SO is not stupid. It seems that a woman who is pretty smart would not miss the signs that her man is going somewhere else or his satisfaction. So if tacit approval is not the correct choice of words what is - benign neglect - situation blindness? Or are we all involved with dumb SOs? I don't think so.

This is just an incorrect assumption. SOs can merrily go along and be completely unaware in every way. To think otherwise is to be naive. It has nothing to do with being "dumb" or having "situation blindness." It is merely the fact that they never suspect. They simply do NOT understand how powerful the male sexual urge is.

It would be difficult for you, for example, to probably understand how aborigines in Australia feel about discrimination. The wives/SOs are content, they think their husbands are content, and they keep on going. SD's situation is not unique by a long shot. Whatever the reason for the lack of sex, these ladies fill a need that is primal, urgent, and felt worldwide. And just as common is the need for men to NOT want to wreck their domestic lives with divorce and all the heartbreak it brings.

This "hobby" is a way to have the cake and eat it too. And it can be had with no consequences -- no disease, no emotions run amok, no LE miseries etc. Certainly disease, emotions, and LE can get hold, but they rarely do. That's a fact. I know a man who has been with hundreds of providers, and his wife has no clue. The man has no diseases and no financial strain. His sanity is made possible by these women. As always, is it ideal? Hell no, but it works.

[Happymon]

So I hobby. The ladies I see are well reviewed and have never shown any inkling of outing me. This seems to be the best way to have enjoyable sex and not hurt my SO

Cool. I've heard of win/win before. It's almost like you're doing the two of you a favor.

[auldguy]

It is merely the fact that they never suspect. They simply do NOT understand how powerful the male sexual urge is.

I was going to edit my last comment with - Maybe just maybe the SO is having her own activity going and chooses to not rock the boat.

This "hobby" is a way to have the cake and eat it too.

She may have strong sexual urges also and has found a way to have her cake and eat it too. There was a book in the seventies "Having it all, love sex and money" that looked at this issues from a female perspective.

Never say never but - NEVER get to comfortable in anything or at least try. Today your safe tomorrow your not. Hobby on.

Edited April 9, 2014 by auldguy
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[BoobLoverJoshua]

You know...I saw this as a single person but....why don't you guys TALK to your wives about all these issues?

[Bit Banger]

You know...I saw this as a single person but....why don't you guys TALK to your wives about all these issues?

I did, frequently. And she apologized for her lack of interest (ability?), but that didn't change her behavior.

In my case, she expected me to have affairs during my travels. I chose ASPs as less threatening to the emotional stability of my marriage, which I still valued for many non-sexual reasons.

[Guest Mr.Bubble]

I did, frequently. And she apologized for her lack of interest (ability?), but that didn't change her behavior.

Yep. They know what they are (not) doing. And quite frequently, they even feel guilty about it. So, here's this woman......with whom you HAVE discussed the issue......and they feel guilty, and even try to compensate in other ways.....and you have 30+ years invested in them.....and they are wonderful people otherwise. Are you REALLY gonna bust their chops over (what they have decided is) THIS ONE LITTLE THING?

I think she suspects. Which is not the same as permission or approval. Maybe resignation. But to know for sure would hurt.

On the other hand, as a guy, no longer being "desired" hurts, too. Especially for guys who were never all that desireable to begin with. Those ladies that do a good job of building that fantasy of desire .......the true GFE types.....fill an important market niche.

[pitbull]

You know...I saw this as a single person but....why don't you guys TALK to your wives about all these issues?

Ah, Joshua. I can only speak for myself, but my wife and I have explicitly talked a LOT about these issues. We have cried about these issues, been baffled, saddened, and bewildered by them -- and occasionally angry over them -- but mostly heartbroken. We have not sought professional help, and that may indeed be a good idea...It comes down to the old Cheap Trick song, "I Want You to Want Me." I have no interest in the Dennis Prager ethos of the wife "giving" her body to me. My wife has tried that, and it is not fulfilling for either of us.

The ASPs take the pressure off of the SOs. Women are just different. My wife has so many wonderful qualities. I could not imagine living without her. And now we are back to our quandary.

[Bit Banger]

... I can only speak for myself, but my wife and I have explicitly talked a LOT about these issues. We have cried about these issues, been baffled, saddened, and bewildered by them -- and occasionally angry over them -- but mostly heartbroken. We have not sought professional help, and that may indeed be a good idea...

Yes - ALL of those emotions come out to play. There are some "professional" tricks, prescription lubricants, hormone therapy, both systemic and localized, etc. None of them were satisfactory in our case - hormone therapy was a frightening prospect related to her cancer.

As you say, ASPs take the sexual pressure out of the equation and allow other aspects of the relationship to flourish.

... I could not imagine living without her. ...

I hope you never have to! It's {indescribable}.

[auldguy]

I think she suspects. Which is not the same as permission or approval. Maybe resignation. But to know for sure would hurt.

Would that not being a definition of tacit approval? I suspect but I don't call it out therefore I am resigned to the fact and so approve by my silence.

[Guest Likenthrope]

Would that not being a definition of tacit approval? I suspect but I don't call it out therefore I am resigned to the fact and so approve by my silence.

I guess. Tell yourself whatever you want so you can sleep at night.

[louisville42]

You know...I saw this as a single person but....why don't you guys TALK to your wives about all these issues?

OMG dude, seriously! My ex and I talked and talked and talked, both in and out of therapy. All sorts of plans were discussed about meeting her emotional needs (but never mine of course), and giving her time, and date nights, and all the little attention in between. And you know what? Our sex life never got back on track, for the simple reason that she never actually tried--all the other stuff was just excuses to put it off.

[Guest Likenthrope]

OMG dude, seriously! My ex and I talked and talked and talked, both in and out of therapy. All sorts of plans were discussed about meeting her emotional needs (but never mine of course), and giving her time, and date nights, and all the little attention in between. And you know what? Our sex life never got back on track, for the simple reason that she never actually tried--all the other stuff was just excuses to put it off.

How, how how how do so many marriages end up this way? I've brought this up with some of the guys I work with that have been married for a while and they claim to be in very similar circumstances.

Should I get a lawyer and draft a pre-nup that states if the sex dries up the marriage contract is in breach?

[SD1958]

How, how how how do so many marriages end up this way? I've brought this up with some of the guys I work with that have been married for a while and they claim to be in very similar circumstances.

Should I get a lawyer and draft a pre-nup that states if the sex dries up the marriage contract is in breach?

I doubt that would do any good. If you are looking for life long hot sex getting married is not the answer. From what a lot of us have posted you can see many of us treasure the life we have with our SO. But as one provider wrote women need a reason for sex and with many of them that desire is replaced later in life by other interests. I always get a kick out of how sex is talked about with desire early on then with disgust later...lots of time by women in long term relationships. Like its a chore not something to look forward to. They still enjoy intimate dinners going out dancing, the movies, sharing other interest but sex seems to die out and with me I love my wife but she has let herself go, does nothing sexy or even shave her legs. She dresses matronly and does nothing to excite me sexually. ultimately marriage is not about sex we as a society try and force it that way. In Europe they have a different attitude. Lots of wives accept their husbands having a mistress or seeing providers.

[louisville42]

How, how how how do so many marriages end up this way? I've brought this up with some of the guys I work with that have been married for a while and they claim to be in very similar circumstances.

In my case it ended up that way because of her really toxic mix of emotional issues around dependence and intimacy. I don't know how common that is, as compared to hormonal changes after childbirth, or burning out on trying to please a jerk of a man with his own emotional problems...

[Guest]

I love my wife but she has let herself go, does nothing sexy or even shave her legs. She dresses matronly and does nothing to excite me sexually.

This is sad.

This whole thread is sad.

[pitbull]

I doubt that would do any good. If you are looking for life long hot sex getting married is not the answer. From what a lot of us have posted you can see many of us treasure the life we have with our SO. But as one provider wrote women need a reason for sex and with many of them that desire is replaced later in life by other interests. I always get a kick out of how sex is talked about with desire early on then with disgust later...lots of time by women in long term relationships. Like its a chore not something to look forward to. They still enjoy intimate dinners going out dancing, the movies, sharing other interest but sex seems to die out and with me I love my wife but she has let herself go, does nothing sexy or even shave her legs. She dresses matronly and does nothing to excite me sexually. ultimately marriage is not about sex we as a society try and force it that way. In Europe they have a different attitude. Lots of wives accept their husbands having a mistress or seeing providers.

Destiny wrote that the thread is sad, and she may be right. But SD has hit it. I would not want to live without my wife. In every other way but sex, she is everything I want. I wish she would get her mojo back, but the hobby is here, and so far it has provided a completely consequence-free outlet. I know there COULD be consequences, but none so far. Knock on wood.

[MrReindeer-9515]

This is sad.

This whole thread is sad.

Agreed, but...

There seems to be an awful lot of wife bashing going on here; and without being able to comment on any specific situations presented other than in the most general of terms, a few thoughts:

I wonder how many of these fine specimens of Manhood look like they did 10, 20, 30+ years ago...

I wonder how many of said specimens put the same effort into grooming, preparation, and foreplay that they would with an ASP as they do with their spouses...

Let's face it, as relationships weather, priorities change and when you combine an aging population(possibly post menopausal, in the ladies case), with less attractiveness and motivation on both sides, and finally considering the population responding(dudes cheating on said spouses with hookers), it should come as a surprise to no one.

[Guest]

Touché

Agreed, but...

There seems to be an awful lot of wife bashing going on here; and without being able to comment on any specific situations presented other than in the most general of terms, a few thoughts:

I wonder how many of these fine specimens of Manhood look like they did 10, 20, 30+ years ago...

I wonder how many of said specimens put the same effort into grooming, preparation, and foreplay that they would with an ASP as they do with their spouses...

Let's face it, as relationships weather, priorities change and when you combine an aging population(possibly post menopausal, in the ladies case), with less attractiveness and motivation on both sides, and finally considering the population responding(dudes cheating on said spouses with hookers), it should come as a surprise to no one.

[DontEvenTrip]

I am reading a wonderful book that a close friend recommended. It's about bioidentical hormones and the amazing effects on pre and post menopausal women (and men too who suffer declining testosterone levels). The book is called "Ageless" by Suzanne Somers. For those of you with wives aged 35-65 who have experienced a declining to non-existent sex drive, I urge you to get a copy of this book and contact a BHT provider. Seriously.

[pitbull]

Agreed, but...

There seems to be an awful lot of wife bashing going on here; and without being able to comment on any specific situations presented other than in the most general of terms, a few thoughts:

I wonder how many of these fine specimens of Manhood look like they did 10, 20, 30+ years ago...

I wonder how many of said specimens put the same effort into grooming, preparation, and foreplay that they would with an ASP as they do with their spouses...

Let's face it, as relationships weather, priorities change and when you combine an aging population(possibly post menopausal, in the ladies case), with less attractiveness and motivation on both sides, and finally considering the population responding(dudes cheating on said spouses with hookers), it should come as a surprise to no one.

I am reading no wife bashing, in fact quite the opposite. And everyone is different, different appearance, different reasons, different situations -- so impossible to generalize.

[inkspot]

I am reading a wonderful book that a close friend recommended. It's about bioidentical hormones and the amazing effects on pre and post menopausal women (and men too who suffer declining testosterone levels). The book is called "Ageless" by Suzanne Somers. For those of you with wives aged 35-65 who have experienced a declining to non-existent sex drive, I urge you to get a copy of this book and contact a BHT provider. Seriously.

What qualifies Suzanne Somers as an expert on anything?

Bioidenticals are not without significant risk. While they may appear as the Fountain of Youth, the lasting effects of blood clots and other debilitating long term problems are well documented.

If a menopausal woman needs help, then use them for a short term.

[pitbull]

What qualifies Suzanne Somers as an expert on anything?

Bioidenticals are not without significant risk. While they may appear as the Fountain of Youth, the lasting effects of blood clots and other debilitating long term problems are well documented.

If a menopausal woman needs help, then use them for a short term.

I too would hesitate to use anything that was not scientifically documented by placebo controlled, double-blind studies.

[DontEvenTrip]

What qualifies Suzanne Somers as an expert on anything?

Bioidenticals are not without significant risk. While they may appear as the Fountain of Youth, the lasting effects of blood clots and other debilitating long term problems are well documented.

If a menopausal woman needs help, then use them for a short term.

First, it is important to clarify that bioidentical hormone therapy is NOT the same as the typical hormones prescribed by mainstream doctors. Those prescribed by mainstream docs are synthetic hormones and long-term they can do more damage than good. And because bioidentical hormones are a natural substance that cannot be patented - there is no money to be made by the big pharm. corps and therefore mainstream doctors continue to recommend the synthetic drugs pharmaceuticalized from horse urine despite the proven dangers.

I'm pretty sure Suzanne Somers was the vehicle to get the message to the public - she is not the expert - but rather an individual who experienced the benefits of BHT first-hand and used her stardom to share her experience with the public.

Hormones affect virtually every single bodily process, low levels of certain hormones and impaired communication with the endocrine system create havoc with all other body systems including the immune, cardiovascular, detoxification and gastrointestinal systems. Chronic illness is also frequently associated with the body's decline in hormone production.

A loss of hormonal balance, as occurs with aging and certainly with menopause, plays a large role in mental and emotional symptoms. The hormonal system is what most correlates to the emotional person. Hormones are the body's way of communicating chemically among cells - effectively telling the cells what to do. They affect virtually every function in your body. Without hormones you cannot sleep, you cannot think clearly, your weight goes out of control, your sexuality diminshes, skin dries out and wrinkles, you cannot regulate body temps etc., etc. As hormones decline, you slowly die.

My own mother began experiencing menopause in her mid-40s. She gained weight, suffered various degrees of depression, and her sex drive all but vanished. She said by the time she was 47, she and her husband were having sex less than 10 times a year! She loved her husband dearly - but simply the thought of sex just didn't occur, she had no desire and the act itself was less satisfying than reading a magazine. She simply didn't desire it at all. She saw an Oprah show about bioidentical hormones and after a short hunt to find a doctor practicing same, she started on the BHRT (Bioidentical Hormone Replacement Therapy) herself. She has her hormones levels checked every 3-6 months and her hormones adjusted accordingly. She is now 63 yrs old - in the best shape of her life - and proudly reports her sex drive is such that her husband has a hard time keeping up to her LOL. Watching the miraculous benefits to her health and quality of life is what motivated me to get a copy of the book.

I feel for the guys like "pitbull" who would do anything to have the intimacy again with his wife. If BHRT could bring that back - why not look into it? xoxo (Excuse the typos - its 3am and I'm typing this in the dark LOL)

[DontEvenTrip]

What qualifies Suzanne Somers as an expert on anything?

Bioidenticals are not without significant risk. While they may appear as the Fountain of Youth, the lasting effects of blood clots and other debilitating long term problems are well documented.

If a menopausal woman needs help, then use them for a short term.

I just realized that a good chunk of my earlier response is missing from what I posted earlier (it was late and I was pooped so I am sure it was operator error lol) Anyway, here is the rest of what I was intending to share (and frankly the most relavent to the concerns raised by inkspot

A large new study from France, published in an American Heart Association journal, shows that bioidentical hormones do not raise the risk of stroke in menopausal women. While it has been well established over the past decade that menopausal women who use [i]synthetic hormone replacement therapy (HRT) such as PremPro have a significantly higher risk of stroke, there has been little safety data for bioidentical hormones. The French E3N research, which is following 100,000 women over time, is the first to show that bioidentical hormone users have the same or lower risk of stroke and blood clots as women not using any hormone replacement. Bioidentical hormones have the same molecular structure as those made by the human body, while synthetic hormones are not found in nature. Three large population studies have shown that menopausal women who use synthetic hormones have a significantly higher risk of breast cancer, stroke, heart disease and gallbladder disease, including the U.S. Women`s Health Initiative (WHI), the British Million Women Study, and the French E3N study, all published over the past decade. The French E3N study is unique in that it provides valuable safety data for users of bioidentical hormones, most recently on estrogen, progesterone and the risk of stroke and blood clots. The most common kind of hormone replacement therapy used by French women is a combination of estradiol patch or gel, and oral progesterone -- both bioidentical hormones. Stroke is the third leading cause of death among women in the U.S., and although more men than women have strokes, more women die from them. The WHI study found that users of the hormone replacement drug PremPro had a 41% higher risk of stroke, so investigators of the French E3N study examined the stroke risk factors for bioidentical hormones to find out if there is a difference. PremPro is made from an estrogen-like extract of a pregnant mare`s urine (Premarin) and a synthetic progesterone or progestin called Provera. In 2005 the French E3N study published research in the International Journal of Cancer showing that women who use bioidentical hormones have the same or lower risk of breast cancer as women who use no hormone replacement. The latest release of information from the French E3N examined the risk ofstroke among women using oral (pill) estrogen, transdermal estrogen (patch or gel), different kinds of progestins, and progesterone. Bottom line, estrogen patches and gels are much safer than estrogen pills, and progesterone is safer than any of the progestins. In fact, women using estrogen patches and progesterone (in pill form) had a slightly lower risk of stroke compared to women not using any type of hormone replacement. A small study recently published in the African Journal of Biotechnology compared endogenous (made in the body) hormone levels in women and men who had an ischemic stroke (blockage of an artery in the brain). The study measured estradiol and progesterone levels in 15 men and 15 women within 12 hours after an ischemic stroke, and compared them to a similar healthy group. The stroke group as a whole had lower progesterone levels than the control group, and a significantly lower progesterone to estrogen ratio. There is no argument among researchers that stroke risk is increased for women who use oral contraceptives, all of which contain progestins, and for women who use hormone replacement therapies that include progestins and/or high doses of estrogen. Now, women who use bioidentical hormones have some assurance that their risk of stroke and blood clots is not increased. ReferencesCanonico M, Fournier A, Carcaillon L, Postmenopausal Hormone Therapy and Risk of Idiopathic Venous Thromboembolism: Results From the E3N Cohort Study, Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. 2010;30:340. Fournier, Agnes, Should transdermal rather than oral estrogens be used in menopausal hormone therapy?: a review, Menopause Int 2010;16:23-32. Fournier A, Berrino F, Riboli E, Avenel V, Clavel-Chapelon F, Breast cancer risk in relation to different types of hormone replacement therapy in the E3N-EPIC cohort, Int J Cancer 2005;114:448-54. Rossouw JE, Anderson GL, Prentice RL et al, Risks and benefits of estrogen plus progestin in healthy postmenopausal women: principal results From the Women`s Health Initiative randomized controlled trial, JAMA.