Posted March 30, 2014 A pimp is a pimp, a hooker is a hooker and a John is a John no matter what they call themselves. You can call yourself anything you want to make yourself feel better but in the end we are what we are. If you can't own it you shouldn't do it. And we should all be bothered by what we know but ignore for are own pleasure. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 I find this recent backpage post deeply disturbing: http://coloradosprings.backpage.com/FemaleEscorts/dangerous-girl-32/14836044 That's the non-emergency line of the local police department. It's clearly not a police officer posting, but its begs the question as to who was stolen, if anyone. Never placed an ad there, so I have no idea if those ads can be edited, but the ad actually says at this time: "... let them no so no one else gets stolen from..." If that is correct, the ad sounds like a warning from someone who got robbed by her pimp, not someone talking about trafficking. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 A pimp is a pimp, a hooker is a hooker and a John is a John no matter what they call themselves. You can call yourself anything you want to make yourself feel better but in the end we are what we are. If you can't own it you shouldn't do it. And we should all be bothered by what we know but ignore for are own pleasure. You can call it what you like, but there's a difference between someone who arranges bookings for girls and is paid a fee for performing that service, and someone who forces girls to work under pressure of physical or psychological abuse, or drug dependency. A world of difference. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 Guess we must agree to disagree. I don't think the law makes that distinction when a hooker "booking agent" is arrested. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 Guess we must agree to disagree. I don't think the law makes that distinction when a hooker "booking agent" is arrested. It's not about legal distinction, it's about practical and moral distinction. There's an enormous difference between pimp and "booking agent" - even you can't be blind to that. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 From Wikipedia Procuringspamorspampanderingspamis the facilitation or provision of aspamprostitutespamin the arrangement of aspamsex actspamwith a customer.[1]spamAspamprocurer, colloquially called aspampimpspam(if male) or aspammadamspam(if female), is anspamagentforspamprostitutesspamwho collects part of theirspamearnings. The procurer may receive this money in return for advertising services, physical protection, or for providing, and possibly monopolizing, a location where the prostitute may engage clients. Like prostitution, the legality of certain actions of a madam or a pimp vary from one region to the next. It has nothing to do with moral or practical distinctions. But whatever helps you sleep at night. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 From Wikipedia Procuringspamorspampanderingspamis the facilitation or provision of aspamprostitutespamin the arrangement of aspamsex actspamwith a customer.[1]spamAspamprocurer, colloquially called aspampimpspam(if male) or aspammadamspam(if female), is anspamagentforspamprostitutesspamwho collects part of theirspamearnings. The procurer may receive this money in return for advertising services, physical protection, or for providing, and possibly monopolizing, a location where the prostitute may engage clients. Like prostitution, the legality of certain actions of a madam or a pimp vary from one region to the next. It has nothing to do with moral or practical distinctions. But whatever helps you sleep at night. Damn thats a lot of spam! I can see you're hung up on defintions, and since P411 and others make money from the prostitution industry, technically you're definition is correct. However, considering how much we hate pimps, you need to decide if arguing semantics is worth it. I don't know how Gina does her business, but if it includes manipulation, character assasination, developing dependent personalities, encouraging pharaceutical dependance, and/or violence......then yeah, she's a traditional pimp. If I suspected such a thing, I would end my P411 membership immediately. However, nothing I've heard about her supports that. Which means, you calling her a pimp is just an insult. Is that what you intend? If not, is arguing semantics worth insulting someone you do not intend to? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 Damn thats a lot of spam! I can see you're hung up on defintions, and since P411 and others make money from the prostitution industry, technically you're definition is correct. However, considering how much we hate pimps, you need to decide if arguing semantics is worth it. I don't know how Gina does her business, but if it includes manipulation, character assasination, developing dependent personalities, encouraging pharaceutical dependance, and/or violence......then yeah, she's a traditional pimp. If I suspected such a thing, I would end my P411 membership immediately. However, nothing I've heard about her supports that. Which means, you calling her a pimp is just an insult. Is that what you intend? If not, is arguing semantics worth insulting someone you do not intend to? +1. A debater's credibility is lost when all he can do is stab at the dictionary while debating. Such a simple-minded approach does nothing to further the discussion. Here's something that WOULD further the discussion: a survey of women who have worked with Gina. How many of them would say they felt "pimped"? How many of them would be considered victims of "trafficking"? Not many, I'd wager. And *that* would be the true barometer for this issue, not Merriam-Webster. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 Damn thats a lot of spam! I can see you're hung up on defintions, and since P411 and others make money from the prostitution industry, technically you're definition is correct. However, considering how much we hate pimps, you need to decide if arguing semantics is worth it. I don't know how Gina does her business, but if it includes manipulation, character assasination, developing dependent personalities, encouraging pharaceutical dependance, and/or violence......then yeah, she's a traditional pimp. If I suspected such a thing, I would end my P411 membership immediately. However, nothing I've heard about her supports that. Which means, you calling her a pimp is just an insult. Is that what you intend? If not, is arguing semantics worth insulting someone you do not intend to? This one time when I refused a trick, she put me in a very tight pair of blue jeans, tied me to a chair and made me watch porn for 8 hours. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 That is because most people on this board want to make what they do seem more socially acceptable than what it is. More correctly Gina would be a madam but then again if you can't accept what you are you shouldn't be doing it. Just one john's opinion. If you think calling an booking agent a pimp is an insult maybe you should find a new "hobby". 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 30, 2014 +1. A debater's credibility is lost when all he can do is stab at the dictionary while debating. Such a simple-minded approach does nothing to further the discussion. Here's something that WOULD further the discussion: a survey of women who have worked with Gina. How many of them would say they felt "pimped"? How many of them would be considered victims of "trafficking"? Not many, I'd wager. And *that* would be the true barometer for this issue, not Merriam-Webster. AV8R, some people only think in black or white, while others think in the vast field of grey. But you already know this. But it really is pointless to try to get a black, or white type thinker to look outside his realm of thinking. Because no matter what you say-they will always back their argument up with the facts as they have seen them printed. Its easier then looking outside the box. There is nothing wrong with this thinking and many people are like this. But you - who commonly will think outside the box, and myself, and others like us will always butt heads with these outwardly nice people. And Gina, I really liked your point of view. You added insight that none of us has had. Thank you for honestly sharing these experiences. I believe that everyone of us would want to believe they would help someone who is being trafficked. But the many variables, or grey area of doing so is indeed huge. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 +1. A debater's credibility is lost when all he can do is stab at the dictionary while debating. Such a simple-minded approach does nothing to further the discussion.. A debater has zero credibility when he/she makes up new meanings for well defined words simply to make them conform to their world view. Language has no meaning without universally accepted meanings for specific words. Hence NNG is absolutely correct. BUT, his statements avoid the real point. I will take a stab at it. There are those assholes amongst us who are bullies, extortionists, manipulative, lazy self centered bastards that will threaten, assault, batter and degrade others in order to advance their own station or make money. While pimping is an excellent career choice for such worthless bastards, they are also found in numerous other walks of life: drug dealers bookies robber-barons of industry police (not all) husbands construction cult leaders and on, and on. My point is assholes are found everywhere, as are decent people, although in seemingly short supply. In the business side of this game the assholes will gravitate to the classic pimp of movie and media fame profiting his sorry ass from the labors of ladies he controls, and the decent ones perhaps to simple booking, driving, etc. But any who participate in the arranging and facilitating of sex with someone else in exchange for money is most assuredly by definition a pimp. Just as I am most assuredly, by definition a john. But to artificially redefine the term pimp OR to stick strictly to a definition and ignore the wisdom of what Gina has to say ..... both are poor debating positions. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 What you are is black and white. Why you do what you do is the grey area. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 "Can't we all just get along." — Rodney King 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 I'm really not offended by any label... I am from the generation of providers who called themselves "Hos" after all. I was only trying to explain my perspective on the word pimp. I realize the dictionary and 99.9% of the world does not agree. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 And I am still in mourning. Maybe I'm naive, but I didn't get the impression these two were pimped or trafficked. Assuming I'm correct in who you're talking about. I'm pretty sure I know who you and Likenthrope are talking about, from your reviews, although I haven't met them. Well you can put your sackcloth and ashes back in the trunk of your hearse (or wherever you keep that stuff when you're not in mourning) ... those two just posted another ad on BP. "we are back in town we are def the funnest girls you'll ever meet" etc. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 What I was referring to are individuals who get caught up in this against their will, and then are intimidated into doing things they wouldn't have done on their own. Not saving women from their own choices and making yourself into some sort of hero. What I was hoping for was a discussion on resources that could be used by individuals in that situation, and advice on what to do if asked for help. Understand that what I do now is stay out of it, I don't even ask questions about a girls personal life. If I suspect that someone is trapped or being coerced I just don't go back. I make it a point to mind my own business. The girl I mentioned above, after I dropped her off at the shelter I washed my hands of the whole situation. I only found out she left when they called me looking for her. That doesn't mean I'm not a human being. I don't want anything fucked up to happen to anyone, and sometimes I wonder if I'm going about this the wrong way and often feel pretty guilty about it. I think the bold type is the most telling thing you've said. Whether it's in our daily lives or within this activity we all have to vindicate our behavior. Everyone has their individual compass or limits. I'm not commenting on whose morally right or wrong. It's what you can live with, personally. I do not agree with the paternalistic attitudes that think that women are not capable of making their own decisions, good or bad. I wish women to be empowered and supported regardless of their choices, bad or good or debatable.... NOT treated like feeble minded victims who need someone else to tell them how to live their lives. They do not need "saving", they need respect and support and assistance if and when they ask for it. They also need to figure out that they alone are responsible for the bad situations they get themselves in, and should be responsible for getting themselves out. Help is out there, if needed, but the whole "save the poor angels" school of thought disgusts me. Being in an abusive relationship or messed up situation is always A CHOICE (at least for people living in first world countries), and it's not until the woman understands that, will she be able to finally pack up her shit and leave. At least, that's what I needed to figure out before I could turn the direction of my life around. I apologize for cherry-picking, Gina. You've offered your own experience as testimony and I defer to your knowledge but I'll never be convinced that it's as simple as a choice for many women and my opinion has nothing to do with paternalistic feelings. In addition, I couldn't be more opposed to the notion that "they alone are responsible for the bad situations they get themselves in". I'm not trying to be trite, but that sounds like something out of The Secret. The fact is many, if not the majority of women were indoctrinated into the industry by people with questionable scruples and intentions. Many of these YL's lack(ed) the basic fundamental structures that are vital to intellectual and emotional development. I hope I'm being clear without violating any TOB rules. Something else to think about.... The guilt you're feeling may be admirable, but it's misplaced, and here's why: People like to say "take away the demand, and the supply goes away". So, some guys end up thinking that their desires are directly contributing to the victimization of these women.... The problem is (and Oxy alluded to this), these women who have pimps and get trafficked are damaged on a deep level. They would find a way to be victimized no matter what. That's not to say I'm excusing our role in the dynamic. What I *am* saying is that we (johns) are not as responsible for their plight as some would have us believe. Melissa is right, stick with reputable, established locals, and you're MUCH less likely to be a party to any of that garbage. Despite what activists like to say, some women really are in this profession by choice, and they're generally not that difficult to identify. I'm in complete agreement with the last paragraph. As to "directly contributing to the victimization.." A pimp is a pimp, a hooker is a hooker and a John is a John no matter what they call themselves. You can call yourself anything you want to make yourself feel better but in the end we are what we are. If you can't own it you shouldn't do it. And we should all be bothered by what we know but ignore for are own pleasure. My hat is off to you, NNG. The highlighted part is gospel. If I've learned anything it's that this activity isn't for the faint of heart. Outside the hobby we rationalize shit every moment of every day. I'm talking all kinds of rationalizations. They're not all bad and some are necessary. They validate our behavior for better or worse. Within the hobby these rationalizations are magnified. I believe there are few innocent bystanders in this game when it comes to clients. I think we're all culpable if not complicit to varying degrees. If nothing else we're guilty of letting our impulses and fantasies, be they emotional or physical, veil and/or distort reality. But that's just my view. As I stated at the beginning of this diatribe, it's what you can live with. All apologies for disappointing everyone by breaking my self-imposed exile but this thread got me th(dr)inking. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 And I am still in mourning. Maybe I'm naive, but I didn't get the impression these two were pimped or trafficked. Assuming I'm correct in who you're talking about. They're back! Prolly just spring break. I thought they were independent too, which is what sometimes worried me. Misplaced worry though I'm sure. All this is puritanical guilt manifesting in other ways. Woe is my neurosis. So um, this thread went places........ I started reading the 7 books of the dark tower by the King. Something I've been putting off for a while. I shouldn't have, they're great. So......I guess I'm over it. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 31, 2014 I'm pretty sure I know who you and Likenthrope are talking about, from your reviews, although I haven't met them. Well you can put your sackcloth and ashes back in the trunk of your hearse (or wherever you keep that stuff when you're not in mourning) ... those two just posted another ad on BP. "we are back in town we are def the funnest girls you'll ever meet" etc. Whoohoo! On that topic, one of the providers in Denver used to drive a hearse (not sure if she still does), and I always wanted her to come over for an outcall but I wasn't sure how the neighbors would react to that car rolling up. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 1, 2014 Basically, I just snuck her out of there, let her stay at my place for the night then took her to a shelter in the morning. Im curious...did you go through with the original session? Did you push her for a session to "thank" you for your help? I know if I had been in that situation, I like to think I woulda helped her too...but I can see myself wanting to be "thanked" with a free session before I dropped her off at the shelter. Im always oppurtunistic, I admit. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 1, 2014 Did you push her for a session to "thank" you for your help? I know if I had been in that situation, I like to think I woulda helped her too...but I can see myself wanting to be "thanked" with a free session before I dropped her off at the shelter. Im always oppurtunistic, I admit. This type of person makes my skin crawl, more than any pimp ever did. There is a "friendly manipulation" game that so many clients play. It's the ones who claim to want to help, who push to be your friends and saviors, who pretend to care about you, who are the worst. Over-staying their time, shorting fees, slipping off the condom, guilt tripping, etc... all in the name of "I'm a nice guy, just trying to help you!". The new, younger and somewhat naïve providers are always their targets. At least he's honest though, few clients would ever admit to their opportunistic behavior. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) "This type of person makes my skin crawl, more than any pimp ever did. There is a "friendly manipulation" game that so many clients play. It's the ones who claim to want to help, who push to be your friends and saviors, who pretend to care about you, who are the worst. Over-staying their time, shorting fees, slipping off the condom, guilt tripping, etc... all in the name of "I'm a nice guy, just trying to help you!". The new, younger and somewhat naïve providers are always their targets. At least he's honest though, few clients would ever admit to their opportunistic behavior." - Oxymoron I absolutely agree! Edited April 1, 2014 by DontEvenTrip typo 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 2, 2014 Im curious...did you go through with the original session? Did you push her for a session to "thank" you for your help? I know if I had been in that situation, I like to think I woulda helped her too...but I can see myself wanting to be "thanked" with a free session before I dropped her off at the shelter. Im always oppurtunistic, I admit. We'd already done our thing, but she REALLY like to be held after it was over. I'd seen her a few times and often it seemed like she just couldn't get close enough. Lots of women just start talking when your holding them and it's often hard to get them to stop. She was that way. That time she was quiet for a few minutes, then all that just came pouring out. It was actually kinda hard for me to deal with, but I did the best I could just to listen. I didn't do anything with her at my place. She was really nervous at first, but once she was comfortable she just passed out. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
