Disturbing story about new sex laws in Sweden.

[Izabella Oz-9667]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-the-games-up-for-swedens-sex-trade-8548854.html

Ok, this is a news story about the new prostitution laws in Sweden. They've criminalized the clients and not the ladies. They are claiming success because of a supposed 70% drop in business.

I have so many problems with this story and what they're doing its not even funny.

First of all, they are openly and completely painting men as predators and the ladies as victims. This is unfair to both. This kind of stuff breeds resentment among clients and men in general – which is never good for women

This whole "every woman is a victim" thing is straight out of the victorian repression where they thought that if a woman enjoyed sex she was mentally ill. This is insulting and an attempt to diminish our sexuality and ourselves as adults. And that's the key. When women are declared to be incapable of making our own choices, when we need to be protected from our choices, then we're being told we're basically [snip].

Also, notice in the story that they approach the johns and demand a “fine” on the spot, or they can go to court and “risk publicity.” This is extortion of the men, plain and simple. Its also just begging for corruption and bribes.

“Buying sex is one of the most shameful crimes you can be arrested for”, says one of the cops in the story. Really? Gee, this cop sure has an innocent view of the world. Genocide, torture, mass murder, [snip], [snip], all rank higher. Hell, in my book so does illegally parking in a handicap spot.

“The problem is gender-specific. Men buy women...” No, they don't. No more than you buy your chiropracter.

“...this isn't about an adult woman's choice” Um...yes, it is.

The world is a complicated place and no, not every lady in the adult business is a confident, and independent success story. And yes, explotation does take place. [snip] , women are beaten, third world women are forced into literal slavery. All of these things are real. But trying to make that the only story is like taking away the vote from women because “many [snip] and not able to make informed decisions.” Yeah, thats true but it is so far from the whole story that its not even funny.

Edited March 29, 2013 by boink36
Forbidden topics removed.

[Guest hgritstoo]

Look, I agree with everything you've written.

The problem is, the law is working and people are noticing.

I expect laws like this in the US within 5 years.

[Nightrain]

Isn't it already a crime for a man to solicit sex? (Aside from certain counties in Nv. that is). Most, if not all, hobbyist know they're engaged in a criminal act now, why would they stop if such a law (such as Sweden's) were enacted?

As for letting the solicited party walk, okay by me, as long as she's available for court should I decide to fight a conviction. I don't see how having her arrested as well would help my situation.

As for paying a fine on the spot, hm, interesting. If I have to go thru an arrest for solicitation, I'd prefer something like a traffic ticket to which you just mail in a fine, LOL.

[nairobi09]

My understanding is that in Sweden they are actually trying to do away with gender references. No 'he' and 'she', etc. If this is true it is even more disturbing that the attempts to eradicate 'prostitution.'

[nairobi09]

Re my previous post:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/04/hen_sweden_s_new_gender_neutral_pronoun_causes_controversy_.html

[Guest]

i apologize in advance for the length of this post, but what can i say? apparently i have something to say ...

wow izabella! you go grrrl!! i'm right there with you, as too i suspect are most other women on this board, whether explicitly or implicitly. & so many countless others like us across the world. this infuriates & saddens me beyond words. i refuse to be called a victim & with rank indignation turn that term right over upon it's head as i Own my choice of path of heart... mind, body! & soul...

as you mentioned, it is true that some women, [snip] come by this route by less noble or empowered means. & this is an example of what a real "crime" looks like. however this is Not the full picture, only the one which many politicians & policy-makers wish to focus upon & exploit in order to further their own propaganda. people are misinformed & fearful of the truth. but the truth is that sex-work, consensual or not, has been around since the beginning of Time. & will continue to Be. & so long as their is not an open policy of tolerance (dare i dream even support?!) for this aspect of our collective human truth, than there will continue to exist the need & demand for its manifestation within the underworld realm of a black market.

& it is not only first world countries in which strong women like us may be found to stand-by & defend the experience of their truths. the international sex-workers rights day on march 3rd was originally founded & initiated in 2001 by a group of 50,000 sex-workers in india who came together in solidarity to voice their defense & support for fellow sisters, ladies of the Light worldwide: "we felt strongly that we should have a day to be observed by the sex-workers community globally . . . knowing the usual response of international bodies & views of academicians & intellectuals of the first world [many of whom assume that sex-workers of third world are different from first world & are unable to make their own decisions] a call coming from a third world country would be more appropriate at this juncture, we believe. it will be a great pleasure to us if all of you observe the day in your own countries too..."

divided we fall, but united we stand. it is my earnest, passionate! hope that we might all reach out, come together & join hands in support of what we know to be of beauty & truth. a recent thread posted by urfan highlights a report just released by the UN commission in which they are recommending the decriminalization of sex-work by member nations around the world: http://www.theotherboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35060

this stirs my hope. for despite our very Nature, the world has been afraid of sexuality. particularly female sexuality. & perhaps on some level i can sympathize... for indeed our erotic powers are a force to be reckoned with!!

"we show the face of the Goddess in a culture that has tried for millennia to break & denigrate Her, just as some today claim we are broken & denigrated. they are not correct & the Goddess will not be broken. in our collective extraordinary experience, we prostitutes have healed even those who do not honor us. were the attack on us over, we could begin to heal the whole world.

after seven thuousand years of oppression, i declare this the time to bring back our temple."

—carol queen

as more women come to bravely exemplify this & all archetypes of the feminine, we will resurrect Her. & then with knowing & loving eyes dance face-to-face our co-creation with Him...

Edited March 29, 2013 by boink36
Forbidden topic removed.

[Guest]

i realize that in the throes of my passion, i ran slightly off-topic with my post as the subject at hand is the attack on male clients as "predators," though the the one can only be seen in the face of the other: "victim." in reality my experience has been extraordinarily sweet, with my clients having shown me great tenderness & affection. & i thank them for having shared with me their "vulnerable, needy side" to quote the remarkable cosi fabian:

"what's going on with the man? the men are taking the only thing that's offered them. i see men maligned for their interest in sex, in any form, & i think that's unfair. men are in awe of the women's body. there's a neediness that's very complex, very complex. & i think a sad thing for the individuals & our culture is that men when they are in a relationship are unable, usually, to express their vulnerable, needy side. & most of us only know the beginnings of our sexual pleasure. i mean everything in our western culture forbids us to know it. most women never develop a sexual personality. our sexuality always reflects our lover at the time, which is a great crime. & the guys feel so loaded because it's their responsibility. & the women put it in you. so when the men came to me, they knew they weren't in charge. for just one hour of their lives, they weren't responsible. . . the men rather than being weird & violent & me being a safe place for them to be at their angriest, my anonymity gave them a safe place for them to be at their softest."

[Nightrain]

OK, now I'm totally confused as the topic of this thread.

[inkspot]

OK, now I'm totally confused as the topic of this thread.

It started out as a pretty interesting tread.

Now it seems that some people just like to hear themself talk.

[Guest hgritstoo]

OK, now I'm totally confused as the topic of this thread.

It started out as a pretty interesting tread.

Now it seems that some people just like to hear themself talk.

Allow me to help.....as it seems you guys are upper management and require an executive summary.

New laws in Sweden: More severe criminal consequences for men. None for women. Based on the assumption that men are evil and women are helpless damsels incapable of thinking or acting for themselves.

Two out of two providers posting are offended by this assumption.

While I found some posts to be a bit verbose, all responses have been well thought out and on topic. Except these.^^^

[inkspot]

While I found some posts to be a bit verbose, all responses have been well thought out and on topic. Except these.^^^

And the above.

[Guest]

i thought that's what this forum was for... expressing our thoughts? i apologize if i became swept away by the emotion of mine. admittedly, i was coming from a poignant place of sharing some of my own needs (or at least desires), vulnerabilities in relation to the topic of public-views & -policy.

thanks for hearing them out, even if i lost you. & for expressing yourself, even if to tell me so.

[Nightrain]

Allow me to help.....as it seems you guys are upper management and require an executive summary.

New laws in Sweden: More severe criminal consequences for men. None for women. Based on the assumption that men are evil and women are helpless damsels incapable of thinking or acting for themselves.

Two out of two providers posting are offended by this assumption.

While I found some posts to be a bit verbose, all responses have been well thought out and on topic. Except these.^^^

A tad snarky, but thank you... I guess.

Anyhoo, went back and perused the story and couple things caught my eye that providers might weigh in on (hopefully, this is not off-topic as it relates to the contents of the linked new story, if so, I apologize and you can delete my post).

"They [prostitutes] tell Haggstrom's officers they're much more likely to be subjected to violence in countries where prostitution has been legalised."

Would this be an argument against legalization in the US?

"Swedish men want oral sex and intercourse, nothing more than that," the undercover cop tells me. "They know they have to behave or they may be arrested. They don't want to use violence."

If a john gets outta line, report him. I can also see the potential for exploitation by the provider, yes?

[Bit Banger]

... While I found some posts to be a bit verbose, all responses have been well thought out and on topic. Except these.^^^

Grits, great summary. But I have to agree, ^^this^^ was snarky!

i thought that's what this forum was for... expressing our thoughts? i apologize if ...

No need to apologize. You are correct - expressing our views on this and similar topics is what this forum is about.

[Guest hgritstoo]

Grits, great summary. But I have to agree, ^^this^^ was snarky!

LOL...you're right.

My apologies to all.

I haven't been laid in a really, really long time! The pressure is building! I'll try to restrain myself until things are better.

I still liked Ember's posts, though.

And I can see where legalization can lead to more abuse.....just like marriage causes spousal abuse. /sarc

Legalize the trade, and put people in jail for hurting other people. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Edited March 29, 2013 by hgritstoo
finished thought

[Lucy Kitten]

Did everyone that read the article miss the fact that this is not a new law??? It was passed in 1999 and has been in effect since then. The law criminalizes the men but I actually did not see the word victim as it relates to the women. I suppose it's not a totally unfair assumption to believe that if the men are the criminals then ladies must be the victim. It just does not seem to be the case here.

I love you Ozzy, I think you are a brilliant young lady but I think you have this one wrong.

“...this isn't about an adult woman's choice” Um...yes, it is.

Remove the quotes and I totally agree, post the entire quote from the article it makes less sense.

"They have no confidence in themselves. They've been left out and neglected and try to get all kinds of attention. This is not about an adult woman's choice." In the 1990s, the Swedish government accepted the arguments of women's groups that prostitution is a barrier to gender equality and a form of violence against women"

If this was really the idea presented to the Swedish government by "women's groups" then the law makes perfect sense. The women are not charged with a crime or registered as a victim they are offered help or are free to go it would seem that buying sex is illegal while selling it is not a crime at all.

I think it is sort of an odd law, but the numbers would indicate that it's working and doing good work too. The women seem more comfortable and less afraid to open up if they are being pimped or trafficked. Which in other parts of the world is actually a problem.

There are lots of problems to consider when trying give this industry validity for the purpose of legalization or decriminalization. Since forbidden topic is forbidden I wont go there but coercion and the actual number of women that are doing this by no choice of their own is one of the biggest things to consider. We should not shun an idea that is actually helping people we should take the idea and roll with it figure out how to make it better it does seem that countries all over the world have an interest in changing prostitution laws. So maybe now it would be a good time for ladies to start speaking up about their positive experiences so the beliefs about sex work can change.

[Izabella Oz-9667]

Legalize the trade, and put people in jail for hurting other people. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Exactly.

[Izabella Oz-9667]

I love you Ozzy, I think you are a brilliant young lady but I think you have this one wrong.

I think it is sort of an odd law, but the numbers would indicate that it's working and doing good work too. The women seem more comfortable and less afraid to open up if they are being pimped or trafficked. Which in other parts of the world is actually a problem.

I love you too! And I think healthy debate is great!!!

If its truly working and not just driving problems underground...I would like to know why exactly. Is it the fact that the women don't have to worry about being arrested and so feel more comfortable and less afraid to open up about pimps, etc?

What exactly is it about arresting the men that solves any of these problems? The article was dismissive of legalization and just said that there is more violence where it legal. Why?

Because until I hear more about why, I still see this as a dismissal of us as adults.

[boink36]

This has the potential to be a good thread with some great discussion about a hot topic. now if we can only eliminate the off topic posts, the "pointing out" of off topic posts, and the apologizing for off topic posts.

[pfunk]

I agree with Izabella. A law that punishes only one side of the criminal transaction is unfair to both parties.

What if we only arrested drug users, but not drug dealers. Sounds silly, doesn't it?

It's either a criminal act, or it's not. If a government body wants to offer help to either the seller, or the purchaser, in an effort to reduce the act, I have no problem. But punishing only the buyer, or only the seller, is foolish.

Sweden's law may be effective in reducing prostitution. That doesn't mean it's right.

[Guest hgritstoo]

Has anyone seen "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo Trilogy?" Not the U.S. version....the Swedish version. Bear with me a moment.

Part of the plot of the 2nd film deals with the sex trade. There is a scene in the film where a drooling old rich guy is having sex with a young girl against her will. In the first film, the heroine is being sexually blackmailed by her probation officer. There are two "happy" sex scenes in the film: One involves the heroine with her girlfriend. The other happens when the heroine sneaks into the male leads bedroom, and uninvited, climbs aboard for a ride. Now, our hero doesn't tell her to stop (nor would have I!) The lesson the Swedish film directors seemed to be putting forth is that only the woman is allowed to control sexual relations. The man has no say....other than (maybe) no. If he does have a say, he's bad.

Now, I look at today's hobbyist. He trades money for sex. The woman sets the price. Or....look at the traditional approach. Get married and buy a lifetime supply. Again, the woman sets the price. Hmmmmm.....maybe the Swedes are onto something.

So, how do you reduce an economic activity? Tax the hell out of it. In this case, the law acts as a tax by raising the cost to the buyer.

With the current US laws, both provider and buyer are law breakers. Assuming both parties are reasonably proper in their behavior, an equal trade happens. If the provider later decides she wants more money...for whatever reasonwhatever reason...her only avenue is extortion. Again....against the law. The nuclear game of mutually assured destruction (MAD) is in play here on a smaller scale.

The Swedish law changes that. The cost is raised to the buyer...because the seller can come back and continue to ask for more money indefinitely. She's not extorting if she's merely reporting a crime. The Swedish law makes it too expensive to buy the product...except by traditional means.

One last comment here....that will probably earn me hatemail from both sides. Despite the existence of MAD....or perhaps within the context of it....there is a power struggle between buyer and seller. This is a good thing in a normal free market. But I think that many providers and hobbyists don't see it as such. Many become misandrists and misogynists. And that's a damn shame.

Especially if you're in Sweden and the provider you've just seen is a misandrist.

[boink36]

Has anyone seen "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo Trilogy?" Not the U.S. version....the Swedish version. Bear with me a moment.

Part of the plot of the 2nd film deals with the sex trade. There is a scene in the film where a drooling old rich guy is having sex with a young girl against her will. In the first film, the heroine is being sexually blackmailed by her probation officer. There are two "happy" sex scenes in the film: One involves the heroine with her girlfriend. The other happens when the heroine sneaks into the male leads bedroom, and uninvited, climbs aboard for a ride. Now, our hero doesn't tell her to stop (nor would have I!) The lesson the Swedish film directors seemed to be putting forth is that only the woman is allowed to control sexual relations. The man has no say....other than (maybe) no. If he does have a say, he's bad.

Now, I look at today's hobbyist. He trades money for sex. The woman sets the price. Or....look at the traditional approach. Get married and buy a lifetime supply. Again, the woman sets the price. Hmmmmm.....maybe the Swedes are onto something.

So, how do you reduce an economic activity? Tax the hell out of it. In this case, the law acts as a tax by raising the cost to the buyer.

With the current US laws, both provider and buyer are law breakers. Assuming both parties are reasonably proper in their behavior, an equal trade happens. If the provider later decides she wants more money...for whatever reasonwhatever reason...her only avenue is extortion. Again....against the law. The nuclear game of mutually assured destruction (MAD) is in play here on a smaller scale.

The Swedish law changes that. The cost is raised to the buyer...because the seller can come back and continue to ask for more money indefinitely. She's not extorting if she's merely reporting a crime. The Swedish law makes it too expensive to buy the product...except by traditional means.

One last comment here....that will probably earn me hatemail from both sides. Despite the existence of MAD....or perhaps within the context of it....there is a power struggle between buyer and seller. This is a good thing in a normal free market. But I think that many providers and hobbyists don't see it as such. Many become misandrists and misogynists. And that's a damn shame.

Especially if you're in Sweden and the provider you've just seen is a misandrist.

Get 3G service and post a bad review, the cops come knocking at your door.

[Guest]

I can see where legalization can lead to more abuse.....just like marriage causes spousal abuse.

oh dear, too! funny... because it's true. in the sense that this makes no sense. at least not to me, but then again... i've never been married

[Guest]

i agree that this kind of a lop-sided policy may lead to a greater likelihood for extortion of the client. an unjust scenario. not much unlike the situation a provider here in the states may find herself in were she to fall actual victim to an act of violence from a client or exploitation by a pimp. what legal recourse would she have at that point, but to expose herself to the risk of subsequent abuse & shame from law-enforcement by any attempt on her part to report the incident? of course, this scenario isn't exactly an adequate analogy as in this case both parties would technically be on the same side as each other, opposite that of the law. but i think one might sympathize with her reluctance to brave that battle, & therefore why some men have been known to prey on prostitutes as supposed easy targets for their ill-intentions or manipulations.

yes the question of legalization, decriminalization or prohibition is a complex one. but to ignore it & maintain the current status quo of fear is to deny reality, perpetuate ignorance & postpone the solution. frankly i'd be lying if i were to claim my unwavering full-fledged support for legalization. i do trust that time one day will come... as ultimately i believe it should in our quest for legitimacy... though not without fumbling through its due course of entangled red-tape. in the meantime, i move for decriminalization so that either party may feel safe to expose injustices as they occur. perhaps options for assisting those who genuinely seek help could be offered versus a uniform assumption that we are all victims. or villains. then perhaps unburdened by the fear of criminal charges, more providers may be willing to come forward with the sharing of their stories... their truths... their light...

which are All of our truths: allowing the whole of society a more intimate glimpse into the heart of its self. what do we have to fear? our depths may be brighter than we allow ourselves to imagine.

[Lucy Kitten]

Has anyone seen "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo Trilogy?" Not the U.S. version....the Swedish version. Bear with me a moment.

Part of the plot of the 2nd film deals with the sex trade. There is a scene in the film where a drooling old rich guy is having sex with a young girl against her will. In the first film, the heroine is being sexually blackmailed by her probation officer. There are two "happy" sex scenes in the film: One involves the heroine with her girlfriend. The other happens when the heroine sneaks into the male leads bedroom, and uninvited, climbs aboard for a ride. Now, our hero doesn't tell her to stop (nor would have I!) The lesson the Swedish film directors seemed to be putting forth is that only the woman is allowed to control sexual relations. The man has no say....other than (maybe) no. If he does have a say, he's bad.

Now, I look at today's hobbyist. He trades money for sex. The woman sets the price. Or....look at the traditional approach. Get married and buy a lifetime supply. Again, the woman sets the price. Hmmmmm.....maybe the Swedes are onto something.

So, how do you reduce an economic activity? Tax the hell out of it. In this case, the law acts as a tax by raising the cost to the buyer.

With the current US laws, both provider and buyer are law breakers. Assuming both parties are reasonably proper in their behavior, an equal trade happens. If the provider later decides she wants more money...for whatever reasonwhatever reason...her only avenue is extortion. Again....against the law. The nuclear game of mutually assured destruction (MAD) is in play here on a smaller scale.

The Swedish law changes that. The cost is raised to the buyer...because the seller can come back and continue to ask for more money indefinitely. She's not extorting if she's merely reporting a crime. The Swedish law makes it too expensive to buy the product...except by traditional means.

One last comment here....that will probably earn me hatemail from both sides. Despite the existence of MAD....or perhaps within the context of it....there is a power struggle between buyer and seller. This is a good thing in a normal free market. But I think that many providers and hobbyists don't see it as such. Many become misandrists and misogynists. And that's a damn shame.

Especially if you're in Sweden and the provider you've just seen is a misandrist.

Having just watched Girl With The Dragon Tattoo both US and Swedish versions, I have to disagree with your assessment. Poor Lisbeth was a serious victim, hence her behavior and the way she dressed, the majority of sex she had seemed involuntary so it would make sense for her to control the situation when she herself actually wanted sex and was consenting. It might be social commentary about Sweden or it could just be in line with the behavior of a victim.

There are little sprinkles of bitterness and misogyny in your post too....

Or....look at the traditional approach. Get married and buy a lifetime supply.

The seller does get to set the price, but the seller who makes a living off this business has some sense and who is to say that is the seller driving the price up? The law makes the gentleman pay a fee based on their income and if they don't want to pay on the spot then they get to go to court and lose their discretion. That seems like a pretty big deterrent to me and I would doubt the buyer would take such a risk to pay such a high fee to the seller (there are always exceptions of course). The seller still needs to make a living so I would imagine that there is still some semblance of balance going on.

[Guest hgritstoo]

Having just watched Girl With The Dragon Tattoo both US and Swedish versions, I have to disagree with your assessment. Poor Lisbeth was a serious victim, hence her behavior and the way she dressed, the majority of sex she had seemed involuntary so it would make sense for her to control the situation when she herself actually wanted sex and was consenting. It might be social commentary about Sweden or it could just be in line with the behavior of a victim.

There are little sprinkles of bitterness and misogyny in your post too....

Or....look at the traditional approach. Get married and buy a lifetime supply.

The seller does get to set the price, but the seller who makes a living off this business has some sense and who is to say that is the seller driving the price up? The law makes the gentleman pay a fee based on their income and if they don't want to pay on the spot then they get to go to court and lose their discretion. That seems like a pretty big deterrent to me and I would doubt the buyer would take such a risk to pay such a high fee to the seller (there are always exceptions of course). The seller still needs to make a living so I would imagine that there is still some semblance of balance going on.

Sounds like we pretty much agree that the law is working because it raises the cost of the transaction to a point much higher than most guys ate willing to pay.

My question is....how do you feel about this as a provider? The government has deemed you TOTALLY INNOCENT, yet driven your customers away. All because they believe you are helpless victims. Are you happy with this? If so....assuming you are not being forced into the business, why are you a provider in the first place?

As to bittermess or misogyny......I sure hope I don't reflect that. I have always tried to treat people.....all people.....with dignity and respect. If I have failed, please PM me. I think if all clients treated all providers with dignity and respect, (and vice versa) there would be no need for many of the laws....here OR Sweden

[2Big]

Yawn, this law has been on the books for over a decade. I'm glad the word is finally getting around.

Plus, why would anyone buy puzzy in Sweden? Swedish girls are easy. If need be, hop on a plane in Stockholm -boom, an hour later you're poontanging it in Latvia.

Most of you folks are completely ignorant about how this works in Europe, so let me enlighten you:

Lots of trafficked girls, mostly from the poor states in Eastern Europe, over the last 10 years or so, a large chunk of them come from the poor Romani population of Romania, Bulgaria, etc. The traffickers, OTOH, are often Russian, Albanian, Ukrainian, etc. In this context, leaving the girls alone and trying to cut off demand makes some sense. The real problem is that it's close to impossible to get to the criminals who traffic the girls. The girls won't talk and the supply lines are so jumbled - makes it close to impossible to track it back to particular individuals.

[Guest hgritstoo]

Yawn, this law has been on the books for over a decade. I'm glad the word is finally getting around.

Plus, why would anyone buy puzzy in Sweden? Swedish girls are easy.LOL.....MAYBE FOR YOU...WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE ME, GIRLS ARE NEVER EASY, REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY If need be, hop on a plane in Stockholm -boom, an hour later you're poontanging it in Latvia.WHILE THIS IS NO PROBLEM TO ME....BEEN KNOWN TO DRIVE 4 HOURS TO GET LAID....MOST OF THE GUYS HERE BITCH ABOUT DRIVING FROM NORTHGLENN TO DTC.

Most of you folks are completely ignorant about how this works in Europe, so let me enlighten you:

Lots of trafficked girls, mostly from the poor states in Eastern Europe, over the last 10 years or so, a large chunk of them come from the poor Romani population of Romania, Bulgaria, etc. The traffickers, OTOH, are often Russian, Albanian, Ukrainian, etc. In this context, leaving the girls alone and trying to cut off demand makes some sense. The real problem is that it's close to impossible to get to the criminals who traffic the girls. The girls won't talk and the supply lines are so jumbled - makes it close to impossible to track it back to particular individuals.

I knew it was an old law. But it has some interesting effects......Boink mentioned one, the review process. On the one hand, this law puts the hobbyist COMPLETELY at the mercy of the provider. Once the guy shows up, she can ask for double the rate and just offer a HJ if that is all she feels like. He's sure not gonna complain about it. Of course, on the other hand, this level of control will come at a cost of 70 to 80 percent of her business. Ladies, Is this a fair trade?

Guys, would you continue hobbying under this law?

[Bit Banger]

... Guys, would you continue hobbying under this law?

A few years back CO put a new law on the books aimed at the clients. John School, heavy fines, etc. It didn't seem to make a dent in my hobby expenditures.

[Lucy Kitten]

I knew it was an old law. But it has some interesting effects......Boink mentioned one, the review process. On the one hand, this law puts the hobbyist COMPLETELY at the mercy of the provider. Once the guy shows up, she can ask for double the rate and just offer a HJ if that is all she feels like. He's sure not gonna complain about it. Of course, on the other hand, this level of control will come at a cost of 70 to 80 percent of her business. Ladies, Is this a fair trade?

Guys, would you continue hobbying under this law?

You are taking this law and this discussion far out of context, and missing some of the finer points. You are looking at it all from the perspective of a client who can see how a provider can manipulate the law. Here in Colorado we have the John Law making the penalties stiffer for the men. Was there an influx of women blackmailing and extorting with the threat of turning them in?? I failed to see that. As long as prostitution is illegal there will always be that chance of manipulation. I can't see why this law is so more dangerous to the client than any other.

If there is a will there is a way, again prostitution is illegal here in the US but yet here we all are because we found a way to make it work. Who is to say that is not the same way on Sweden? Just because they reported a 70% drop in business only means that was what they were able to see.

Your fair trade question is truly a hypothetical and puts the wrong idea about this into the heads of others. Did you miss the part of the article where this law has really helped women? Where 40 trafficked Romanian women felt comfortable with the Swedish government to speak out against those who trafficked them? Is the fear of possibly being extorted by some law in another country override the importance of helping trafficked females??

This is in reply to your other post Grits....

I don't believe the spirit of the law was that we as women were hapless victims. I think we need to remember we are discussing Sweden and not the US, countries in Europe are piled on top of one another making trafficking much easier. If the law explicitly says we are hapless victims then please show me, please show me where it even said it in the article. Even if it that is how they refer to us providers I really don't mind. I don't like the stereotype but if it helps a woman who is really a victim how can I really complain. The victims in the business are real and deserve every ounce of help they can be given and if it means I have to get clumped in that generalization I am really ok with it.

The dichotomy between consenting adults and trafficked adults makes solving this problem very difficult. You really can't have a law that serves them both. Consenting adults get it up in arms when anyone mentions that they might not be consenting or some sort of victim forgetting that laws like this are truly helpful to real victims and real victims in this business do exist. I think it would be hurtful to outright legalize it, making it that much easier for traffickers and pimps to do their work. If you decriminalize, those who are smart and consenting can go on about their business without fear and law enforcement is free to pursue those who are really are victims and pimps and traffickers.