Money v. Self-Esteem (or, Responsible Use of Language in Advertising)

[-REDACTED-]

I understand that language is fluid. We all have our interpretations of what different words mean, and one person's idea of pretty, or most other adjectives, doesn't translate to all other people. A reviewer might say that a girl is super hot, and I show up and think, "she's okay." That's all fine and expected.

However, there are certain words that we use in advertising, which we use for their widespread consensus on the meaning of those words, even in a vague way. For a couple examples, "new" and "improved" mean things, even if they are still a bit subjective. A product that has been entirely unchanged for the past ten years cannot simply write New & Improved on the box without changing a single thing in the formula or design. A ten year old product is not new, and an unchanged product is not improved. Now, a changed formula from 18 months ago, does that count as "new"? Perhaps, perhaps not. It is still a vague term, but, there is a general interpretation that "new" would not apply to a ten year old product, and "improved" would not apply to a product that has not been modified somehow.

Okay, so now, let's relate this to the adult escort profession. I believe that, while still somewhat vague and subjective, there are some terms that ASPs use directly because of their widespread interpretation. If a provider uses the term "BBW," and I show up to find a 110lb 4'11? girl, obviously, she used the wrong term. Similarly, if a provider uses the term "spinner", and I show up and find a girl who looks like she's 2 months off of pregnancy and still has baby weight, she used the wrong term. That's not a "spinner". That's maybe a former spinner, maybe a future spinner, but not a spinner.

How does this relate to the thread title?

Well, the thing I'd like the ladies to consider is, which is more important to you? Money, or self-esteem?

If I respond to an ad, with creatively shot photos that barely show the stomach, and the ad says "spinner", and I show up and find a girl with a sizable pooch or a bunch of cellulite and flab, chances are, I'll pay and stay, I'll just feel lied to and not return, and probably write a bad review, even if the service itself was great. So, if money is all that is important, then by all means, advertise yourself as a blonde spinner even if you're a 160lb lady with dyed blue hair. When I show up, I'll clearly be disappointed with your appearance, and it will be written all over my face, and you may end up feeling worse about yourself (lower self-esteem) afterward, because one of your youngest, most in-shape clients thought you were "eh." (I'm 31, 175lbs, and a runner, and a music producer).

But, if self-esteem is more important, then advertise who you actually are. There are tons of guys into 160lb girls with blue hair (just as a random example, this isn't referring to anyone real). There are guys paying for time with girls in their 50s, there are guys paying for time with BBW girls, and so on. There is room for everyone here. But, if you are 5'5" 145, you can't advertise as a spinner, unless you want me to show up and be obviously disappointed, and irritate me to the point of writing a bad review.

That's all, just that basic thought. False advertising is obviously a poor tactic for the long run, and for the girls that are just about how much they'll make tonight (with no regard for reviews or regulars), go ahead and keep doing whatever you want. But, for the ladies that want good reviews and regular clients, don't make me meet you in person to find out you're not a spinner, or you're not really 24, because, it really just hurts YOU in the end. Sure, you make a couple hundred, but you get a bad review and lose a potential customer. There are times I don't just want a cute spinner, but a more full, down home sort of experience, and I may have called you one of those times, except that you already lied to me about your stature or age, and now I won't return.

I don't expect to change anyone here, but I wanted to let the ladies know how I feel. Use the word spinner if 90% of people would, right now, consider you a spinner. Not if you used to be before you became pregnant, not if you think 140lbs counts as spinner but most people wouldn't, not if you were a spinner for 24 years and just this year you put on 20 pounds. You're not a spinner, don't use the term. At all. And on the same note, show us your body in your pics. If you have a pooch you aren't proud of, show it anyway. If I have to show up in person to discover it, I'll be clearly disappointed, and you'll probably feel even worse about your body at that point (even though I'm a gentleman and wouldn't actually say anything, it would likely be very obvious regardless).

In short, if $200 today is the most important thing, then, by all means, tell me you're a 24 year old spinner, I'll show up and see that you're a 32 year old 140lb lady, I'll begrudgingly pay and stay, and you'll get a crappy review. If good reviews and happy regulars are your goals, don't lie to me about your stature and use ten year old glamor shots, it hurts you in the end.

Food for thought.

[REDACTED]

[pitbull]

Money always takes precedence in any business, as it should. I'll use Estes Park, Colorado, as an example. 90% of the restaurants are terrible there because they cater to the one and dones.

In this world, there must be enough men to go around who are like you -- they will show up, NOT get what they want, but pay anyway.

Women in it for the LONG HAUL probably will not advertise falsely, but even that is not true, hence standard hooker math.

But for the vast majority of BP ladies, I think this is an occasional money-making venture. Do whatever it takes to get the horny guy in the door and he'll pay. There's always another sucker around the corner.

Ultimately, the glorious thing about capitalism is that good service/product leads to more money in the long term. You can't make real money unless you please a lot of people. I don't think "self esteem" enters into the equation.

[-REDACTED-]

The only reason I list self-esteem is from personal experience.

I'll give you a quick run-down of what happened.

This was over three years ago, and has stuck with me ever since. I don't remember the lady's name, but, she was an established lady who advertised regularly, with pictures.

I contacted her, after seeing her ads, which listed her as "slender" and showed pictures of a fairly thin asian girl, maybe 130ish. Not super tiny, but, thin and cute and I was into her. So, I contacted her, she sounded cute, and we booked an appointment. I had been watching this girl's ads for months, and they were very regular. I'd also seen two of her friends, so I knew she was at least real, not a rob or LE.

So, I booked, and I planned my day around it, went to Denver, and found a coffee shop near her incall. I worked from there that morning, and then went to meet her.

She opened the door, and she was... let's say, not even close to her pictures. She wasn't only not slender, I would easily call her fat. She was very large. She had a large stomach, and butt, and while she looked facially like the pics, there is no way she was less than 180. She definitely weighed more than I do.

Well, I tried. I stayed, I kept a smile on, and I really tried. I could not get hard, she is not my type. She tried to give me a handjob, and a blowjob, and neither was working because I'm very visual and I couldn't get past her weight. This was a girl I never would even consider at the bar if she threw herself at me, much less fawn over or want to spend money to be with.

She offered to turn on porn, and I declined. She offered to give me a partial refund, and I again declined, because her feelings were obviously very hurt that this cute, 27 year old guy could not get it up and it was obvious why he couldn't. It was obvious that I wasn't into her weight, it's difficult to hide that disappointment. At first I thought she was just the door girl, and when I realized it was her, I double-checked and seemed surprised. There's no way she didn't know it was because of her weight.

Well, anyway, I tried to play it off like it was me, not her, and told her to keep the money and I would take off, and she seemed highly offended. Within one week, her ads disappeared, and I've never seen or heard from her again around here.

Now, that was just one experience, but I've gotten that same vibe multiple times. Where, a girl lets me in, I see her pooch or her flab or her short hair (when she used pics with long hair), and I'm obviously disappointed. I get that vibe from them, that somehow it hit their self-esteem. That's just my read, but, I think it's accurate.

I think self-esteem does have something to do with it, and it's something the ladies don't seem to consider until the sort of thing I listed above happens to them. Trust me, that lady was humiliated and embarrassed of her appearance, and offended by my lack of attraction to her. I almost guarantee her self-esteem suffered from that interaction. I'm sure enough of it that I still think about it, years later.

[Bit Banger]

Money always takes precedence in any business, as it should. ...

While I am basically a right-of-center capitalist, I do believe there is a point where integrity should trump profit. Some would say that 'the marketplace' polices this, but that's for the long haul providers. Short term profiteers ignore integrity all the time.

{Topic for a different board: What short term profiteers in the stock market have done to American industry.}

... I don't think "self esteem" enters into the equation.

I would strongly disagree with this statement. Many folks (M&F) refuse to acknowledge, even to themselves, that they have issues (weight, hygiene, etc.). And how many times have we heard "Because I'm worth it!" in rate threads, as opposed to "Because my service is worth $s in the marketplace."

[-REDACTED-]

;393355']

I think self-esteem does have something to do with it, and it's something the ladies don't seem to consider until the sort of thing I listed above happens to them. Trust me, that lady was humiliated and embarrassed of her appearance, and offended by my lack of attraction to her. I almost guarantee her self-esteem suffered from that interaction. I'm sure enough of it that I still think about it, years later.

And ultimately, my point is that it could have been entirely different.

If she had posted as BBW, and used recent pictures, I wouldn't have gone, and she wouldn't have had that experience with me. Instead, someone who is actually into larger women would have called her, and she would have gained self-esteem from someone who is into her body style, instead of losing it because someone into slender girls wasn't into her.

There are many guys, even hot guys with amazing bodies, walking around town hand-in-hand with larger women. There are plenty of guys into that specifically, I'm just not that guy. I'm the guy that only called because of the word "slender" and the pictures along with it.

That same hour that I ruined her entire day by leaving after 15 minutes with zero attraction to her, she could have spent with someone who loves her curves. Just because I'm not into her doesn't mean others won't be, but first it's important to be honest with yourself regarding who you actually are.

I may want to have the upper body of a UFC champion, but I actually have hardly any noticeable muscles above my legs.

If I advertise on Match or another dating site as having a martial artist's physique, and a girl responds based on that description and a face picture, and I show up looking how I do, I'm sure I will have a difficult time remaining confident in my body.

If I say I'm a trail runner, which I am, and show up looking how I do, I can be confident, not because I look better (or desire upper body muscles any less) but because that girl is now expecting strong leg muscles, and a thin body from lots of cardiovascular exercise, and that's what I have.

Could I get the first girl, with some extra effort or charm? Sure, potentially (probably not if she's just into the physique, though), but, the second girl is way better for my self-esteem and ability to project a confident vibe.

[MAG]

The same question "money vs. self esteem" could be asked of you...

Was it a lack of self esteem that led you to stay & pay, despite the fact that she was vastly different than advertised?

The false advertising would stop in a hurry if guys would just turn around & walk out. That you stayed & tried to be polite only encouraged her to keep doing it. By paying anyway, you lose the right to complain - especially when you're complaining to people who had nothing to do with the transaction.

Grow a backbone.

[2Big]

;393355']Well' date=' I tried. I stayed[/quote']

That's the problem right there. This sort of behavior only enables and encourages these cheats, deadbeats, and lowlifes.

I would have laughed in her face and turned around.

If three guys do this, she's either gonna shape up and wise up or find another job.

[-REDACTED-]

The same question "money vs. self esteem" could be asked of you...

Was it a lack of self esteem that led you to stay & pay, despite the fact that she was vastly different than advertised?

No, actually it was a combination of:

A. My not having much experience outside of Denver Players/Denver Sugar.

and

B. My fear of a crazy ASP blacklisting me over leaving.

I've since learned a lot that could have helped me, and I may react differently now, although I must say the fear of blacklists still influences my reactions to cheats.

[fork]

;393350']

In short, if $200 today is the most important thing, then, by all means, tell me you're a 24 year old spinner, I'll show up and see that you're a 32 year old 140lb lady, I'll begrudgingly pay and stay, and you'll get a crappy review. If good reviews and happy regulars are your goals, don't lie to me about your stature and use ten year old glamor shots, it hurts you in the end.

[REDACTED]

I agree mostly, but your post is a complete waste of time.

Your target readership - fat, old, ugly Backpage hookers - is unlikely to consider the finer points of your well-reasoned argument. Perhaps I stereotype, and one of them will chime in and straighten me out.

[-REDACTED-]

I agree mostly, but your post is a complete waste of time.

Your target readership - fat, old, ugly Backpage hookers - is unlikely to consider the finer points of your well-reasoned argument. Perhaps I stereotype, and one of them will chime in and straighten me out.

Wow I really laughed out loud at that one

You have a point.

[Guest Birdie]

Ok-I?m chiming in?

I started years ago on BP and, while it served a purpose then; I wouldn't touch it now because it mostly represents "low hanging fruit", for providers, clients (i.e., if your willing to take the risk to find your gem) and to LE. Not meant to offend anyone-just being honest.

In this industry, the overall perception by providers is that clients prefer (and want) young, shapely, vivacious ladies. The market is saturated with those described types (e.g., the median age of BP ads is 20-24 yrs. old). Now add to that, the competitiveness of this market between providers. When the motivation is to make money?this general perception (that is only reinforced in society as civilian women outside of this industry), easily becomes a reality and, a lot of providers strive to conform to those same perceived standards; regardless of ones self-esteem?it?s comes down to doing what it takes to ?attract? money.

That is where the problem lies, drives the out dated photos, misleading descriptions, age discrepancies??deceptive? advertising?a lot of females are trying to keep up with the perception of what men, ?you? the potential client with the money, wants and, what the market seemingly-generally demands of providers, in order to make the money.

The flip side is there is also a lot of inexperienced, new ?young, shapely, vivacious? females who believe that is all it takes to be a provider and, bring no personality, skills, customer service to their business model.

Include to that, the misleading advertisement by various acronyms; buzz words, without any comprehension of meaning/service or intent to deliver such? But it is competitive advertising and attracts the same money making opportunities.

The OP obviously has a good conscience that he may have hurt someone?s feelings, self-esteem. Because of the circumstances surrounding that, it brings up the misleading advertisement issue(s) that is inherent to this industry.

The most successful woman in this industry understand the philosophy that there is ?someone for everyone.? They embrace & capitalize on their greatest assets whether it be height, weight, looks, personality and even age?regardless of what they perceive the market is dictating. Additionally, a good provider practices with integrity, good customer service, honesty in advertising?and most of all, knows you have to have a thick skin in this industry (regardless of self-esteem) because, ?no one person can please everyone? and even on her best day?insensitive, critical, outright hurtful incidents, comments can be unpredictable & unavoidable. Fortunately, because of good business practices?the positive experiences far out way the negative ones and that?s why they are still doing this?it provides a way of making money, and worth it.

I also don?t think industry longevity, age of the provider has anything to do with these issues; I do believe that it is simply an individual?s personal integrity, regardless of what business they are in?and that is what contributes to the longevity and profitability.

I can understand the regret that maybe you just didn?t connect, or her personality wasn?t your type (?), but you got the services advertised, so you paid for the session?but, then you move on. If someone?s feelings get hurt because of honest feedback over their faulty business practices; there are bigger issues going on with that person?that is a self-imposed cycle, I?m sure would wear on anyone?s self-esteem; but, that?s their problem-not yours the consumer.

In today?s economy, it is too easy for any female to convince herself she can do this, throw up an ad, and use old pictures, bla, bla, bla?

Honestly?the consumer drives any business market, rates, and, ultimately quality of service. Most of us wouldn?t pay (the same competitive rates) for a bad dentist, doctor, lawyer and feel sorry or responsible for them? I would cancel my credit card or check real quick.

This industry is the only business transaction to avoid that parallel scenario, by turning around and walking out! False advertisement is not your problem and there is NO reason to complain if you ignored the obvious and, paid for it anyway?

Be a wise consumer, do your research and do not excuse or complain if you didn't?

I can appreciate being ?new-naive?, fear of repercussions?but, good, legit, long-term providers face those same circumstances all the time. Do the mathematical ratio here; providers, see more clients over a given span of time, then clients see providers. No matter how good, how long?all providers get the threat of bad reviews, slander, and even outing if we don?t comply with one jerks demands. Any given person, day-could shatter our world on top of all the inherent risks.

As providers-we risk all the same things you as clients do in this business transaction?but few clients acknowledge-appreciate our silent adversities. Honestly-good girls don?t complain and why should general consumers of our business even care? There are other countless ?providers? out there who do not screen, are cheaper; the same prospective client(s) and the potential money we may lose, is also willing to take an instant gratification risk, all to get an instant nut?so why complain about who, how, what, when you the consumer got the result you sought. Any more expressed emotion, sympathy, regret on your part, on some level is inappropriate given the circumstances you chose to go with?

This is a business, a lot of money is at question, required and, ultimately exchanged; under the guise of ?consenting adults,? on any given day; and it is a gamble-PERIOD. The ratio of genuine individuals on both sides is most likely smaller than the general betting odds and actual outcomes; however, when you do find like-minded individuals; those are the exact elements that lead to long-term connections, friendships, trysts?eliminating all of the drama for those concerned?and it is well worth the initial gamble/financial exchange for those particular individuals.

?While in Vegas,? If anyone wants to roll the dice, while ignoring the odds?but, played anyway (on either side of this hobby fence), that?s on them?most ?civilians? leaving Vegas, don?t walk around speaking about how sorry they felt for the dealer and continued betting their hard earned income or how much money they foolishly lost and suffer as a result? That's plain stupidity, not self-esteem?

It was not my intent to write a dissertation, or be insensitive?or invite disparaging responses (feel free to PM me if you wish). Its just my 2+ cents, common sense, honest assessment?because a dear lady of this board told me she missed my posts J

Birdie

[Paul Pudenda]

That's the problem right there. This sort of behavior only enables and encourages these cheats, deadbeats, and lowlifes.

I would have laughed in her face and turned around.

If three guys do this, she's either gonna shape up and wise up or find another job.

My thoughts exactly, though I probably wouldn't laugh - I'd be too pissed off for wasting time and gas. If you use a hobby phone, she can't find you. If your number is blacklisted, get another phone - and so on, and so on.......

[Guest Birdie]

Please forgive my first post's appearance (question marks in place of comma's and quotations) as this boards software doe's not support "cut & paste" from Office 2013 formatting.

I always appreciate and respect someone's feelings and perceptions...

To the OP...

"No, actually it was a combination of:

A. My not having much experience outside of Denver Players/Denver Sugar.

and

B. My fear of a crazy ASP blacklisting me over leaving.

I've since learned a lot that could have helped me, and I may react differently now, although I must say the fear of blacklists still influences my reactions to cheats"

The two former agencies you mentioned were well known in this town did screening/procedures by the book; that alone should have set the bar for your future expectations, not serve as an excuse?

There are also numerous sites specifically for "newbies" instructing you on how to do everything to avoid negative results. You cant claim fowl for ignoring your gut when the provider was not who was advertised and you got basically what you wanted anyway and, willingly paid for it?

Additionally, blacklists are very misunderstood and misused. Good providers only look for absolute crazies...we can obviously discern whiners, drama queens who post for attention at your reputation expense; from genuine risks to us.

Furthermore, it's simple reality that there are several providers who publicly appear to be elegant, upscale, yaddy-yadda's and behind the scenes they are ruthless, back stabbers who will blacklist you, ruin competing providers reputation in a heartbeat...whatever it takes to secure "their" money-all of it is a game you aren't even aware of and far exceeds your perceived "newbie" insecurities of being weary of "obvious" cheats.

The ONLY advise I can give is:

1. Be responsible for what you want and how you went about to get it and do not excuse, blame, blab negative outcomes on your innocence, naivety or the other "head" making decisions for you-were all adults.

2. Only risk what your willing to loose.

3. When you do find what your looking for in one or even a few providers; be appreciative, take nothing for granted (showing up early/late, farting openly, over staying your welcome, and expecting free socialization time) and, most of all show respect & discretion...and you will be the one, we are also looking for as a "keeper" and will accommodate.

Otherwise keep shopping the likes of BP, let your little head make poor private choices and, your big head publicly complain about it and, good luck to you?

I'm sorry to sound harsh-but were all "consenting adults" and this isn't rocket science?

Birdie

[-REDACTED-]

The two former agencies you mentioned were well known in this town did screening/procedures by the book; that alone should have set the bar for your future expectations, not serve as an excuse?

I never was screened for Denver Players, at least, not that I'm aware of. I gave them my first name and last initial, and I showed up at the incall. I had no callable references, the only girls I'd seen prior were with Wildflowers and that had disbanded. They had me take off my clothes and put them in a closet, in a different room from where the girl was (I still remember her name and exactly how she looked). I was allowed to keep my wallet with me. Then, I got a massage, and then I got full service, and then I was a client. So, no, there was nothing "by the book" about my screening with them. It was rather strange actually (they theorized that a cop would need a recording device, and by getting naked in a different room I'd have to abandon it and I would hesitate and try to keep my clothes near us).

[Guest]

;393429']They had me take off my clothes and put them in a closet' date=' in a different room from where the girl was.[/quote']

Wait, they took your clothes? I'd have been like "Thanks and all. Be seeing you."

I'm really surprised the end of the story isn't. "Oh, you want your clothes back? What are they worth to you? I see you have your wallet there."

[txspine33]

Wait, they took your clothes? I'd have been like "Thanks and all. Be seeing you."

I'm really surprised the end of the story isn't. "Oh, you want your clothes back? What are they worth to you? I see you have your wallet there."

C'mon. They want a naked guy stuck in there place taking up room for the next guy? Unless they could shake you down for serious cash...and they would keep your wallet if that was the case . And what idiot brings their wallet to an incall??

[Guest Birdie]

;393429']I never was screened for Denver Players' date=' at least, not that I'm aware of. I gave them my first name and last initial, and I showed up at the incall. I had no callable references, the only girls I'd seen prior were with Wildflowers and that had disbanded. They had me take off my clothes and put them in a closet, in a different room from where the girl was (I still remember her name and exactly how she looked). I was allowed to keep my wallet with me. Then, I got a massage, and then I got full service, and then I was a client. So, no, there was nothing "by the book" about my screening with them. It was rather strange actually (they theorized that a cop would need a recording device, and by getting naked in a different room I'd have to abandon it and I would hesitate and try to keep my clothes near us).[/quote']

I don't' want to get off track...it wasn't that easy and simple. Any savvy girl/agency screened you nine ways to Sunday simply based on your phone number, name...otherwise there would have been no appointment.

While agencies "disband" where do you think their employees go? They change their names, new pictures and are back on the market instantly-just because an agency closed, providers still have families to support and bills to pay.

Taking your clothes??? Did it cross your mind maybe the girl behind closed doors is running a scam, about to rip you off because she to is new with the agency and could care less about you or to continue working for said agency?

What the hec would you have done if her pimp busted in, demanded your wallet, watch, and keys (to take your car and go bust into your home), all the while your running after her naked, screaming for help?

The responding cops would stop you in your tracks as the naked crazy guy chasing a defenseless woman and what agency? They know nothing about you but some name...Tom, Dick, Harry? Threatening one of their employees...what you perceive as a hassle free transaction-could have ended in arrest with multiple charges.

If you want "ease of access" it comes at a risk...do not gamble what you are not willing to loose. If you want genuine quality...it comes at a price-maybe not monetarily, but definitely inconvenience, screening...

While there are deep, genuine connections made by an initial business transaction---men seek out what woman have-its a business transaction and both sides need to keep that as a focus to make money, spend it and ensure personal safety.

Birdie

[Guest]

And what idiot brings their wallet to an incall??

Not this one. I don't leave my clothes in some closet in another room either. lol

[Jez UaBriain]

I believe this is more about integrity then self esteem. This is a business that for many-integrity, is not in the pic-both males and females. You want a bonofide experience then back channel. Choose a provider that has been in the business for awhile, with a good reputation. Then pm her credible clients and ask them if she is, does what she states she is about.

There are a few ladies in this business whom I care about. They share a lot of the same view-points that I have. Personal integrity is high on the list. For some of us , the experience we give you is part of the package. Not just a fuck, a true ''gfe'' experience with a twist.

I would be embarrassed if I used someone else's pictures. Would never happen. Just as if I state my weight, height etc. You can count on it that is accurate.