I take my hat off to the Ukranian people and their leader Zelensky!

[Newoldbull]

I am amazed at the fight the Ukrainians are putting up to save their nation. My hat is off to Zelensky as well. This whole affair is heart-rending.  Bombing of civilian targets with no regard for human life. I would have said when the invasion started it would be a cakewalk with the Russians taking Ukraine in days. Putin might have bit off more than he can chew. This is a world changing event and I hope Ukraine can survive this attack by a delusional war criminal like Putin. I would hope that the American people would respond in the same way if we had to. 

[lustybustygina]

 Putin does not look heathy at all ..

He doesn't have his Orange Glow side kick to help him out or wait the other way around !!

[gr8owl]

Putin is pure evil.  No excuse for what he is doing in Ukraine.  The burning question is whether in addition to being evil, is he also daft.  Or bluffing on nukes?  Not of sound mind with sole authority to launch Russian nukes is a scary thought.

That said, I grow very tired of the "unprovoked attack" business. Keep this short but .... Ukraine changed its constitution more than once since forming in 1991 as an independent state.  They were by constitution a neutral country.  Then they changed the constitution and applied for NATO membership.  They charge Russia 2 billion dollars per year for the privilege of transporting gas and oil across Ukraine to Germany and western Europe.  Politicians here, primarily right wing, have pressed hard to kill the Nordstream pipeline from Russia to Germany which would not pass through Ukraine, with promises to do so if they take control of Congress in 2022 election.  Add in a thousand years of hostilities between these Rus cousins and I am not too sure "unprovoked" is real accurate.  Yes, I admire the Ukrainian people who are fighting valiantly against invasion.  They did not ask for this - their leaders, well, kinda, not that simple.

Now as to Mr. Zelensky - lots of sides to this Rubik cube.  He is doing his level ass best to draw us into the conflict militarily with ludicrous requests of no fly zones, more fighter planes when the ones they have are not being used, top shelf weapons requests, etc.  No way in my opinion should we fall for it.  Putin attacks a NATO member - yeah, all in, have to.  And this should be a major wake up call to be better prepared, absolutely including a greatly improved air defense system including against Putin and Xi's hypersonic toys.

And just for entertainment, another facet of Mr. Zelensky:

 

 

[Newoldbull]

I wholeheartedly agree that we should not be drawn into this conflict. We have nothing to gain by it. I think he will finally grind Ukraine into surrendering. It will be interesting to see if he stops there. If he were to start invading NATO countries we would be obligated to step in. Hopefully it never happens. 

[2Big]

On 10.3.2022 at 1:29 AM, gr8owl said:

Putin is pure evil.  No excuse for what he is doing in Ukraine.  The burning question is whether in addition to being evil, is he also daft.  Or bluffing on nukes?  Not of sound mind with sole authority to launch Russian nukes is a scary thought.

That said, I grow very tired of the "unprovoked attack" business. Keep this short but .... Ukraine changed its constitution more than once since forming in 1991 as an independent state.  They were by constitution a neutral country.  Then they changed the constitution and applied for NATO membership.  They charge Russia 2 billion dollars per year for the privilege of transporting gas and oil across Ukraine to Germany and western Europe.  Politicians here, primarily right wing, have pressed hard to kill the Nordstream pipeline from Russia to Germany which would not pass through Ukraine, with promises to do so if they take control of Congress in 2022 election.  Add in a thousand years of hostilities between these Rus cousins and I am not too sure "unprovoked" is real accurate.  Yes, I admire the Ukrainian people who are fighting valiantly against invasion.  They did not ask for this - their leaders, well, kinda, not that simple.

Now as to Mr. Zelensky - lots of sides to this Rubik cube.  He is doing his level ass best to draw us into the conflict militarily with ludicrous requests of no fly zones, more fighter planes when the ones they have are not being used, top shelf weapons requests, etc.  No way in my opinion should we fall for it.  Putin attacks a NATO member - yeah, all in, have to.  And this should be a major wake up call to be better prepared, absolutely including a greatly improved air defense system including against Putin and Xi's hypersonic toys.

And just for entertainment, another facet of Mr. Zelensky:

 

 

What you write is mostly bullshit. 

[gr8owl]

3 hours ago, 2Big said:

What you write is mostly bullshit. 

Ha!  This from the bullshit ninja.  Got something specific you believe is incorrect, lets hear it.  Dismissive one line attempts to insult?  Yawn.

[Newoldbull]

When I said i wouldn't support getting involved with the conflict in Ukraine I meant "boots on the ground" involvement. I would hate to see our young men coming home in body bags over something that could have been prevented if Putin hadn't seen weakness. I have no problem with supplying the Ukrainians with anti tank missles and other materials to help them.     We have major problems every direction you look nowadays and i don't think we are in a position to be in any kind of major conflict. The border, record inflation, soaring energy prices. All things that could be cured if the current administration wasn't such a bunch of clowns. Can you imagine getting into a major conflict with these morons in charge. By the way they said Joe went home for the weekend. He needed some rest. The leader of the free world. Right!!! 

[gr8owl]

7 hours ago, Newoldbull said:

When I said i wouldn't support getting involved with the conflict in Ukraine I meant "boots on the ground" involvement. I would hate to see our young men coming home in body bags over something that could have been prevented if Putin hadn't seen weakness. I have no problem with supplying the Ukrainians with anti tank missles and other materials to help them.     We have major problems every direction you look nowadays and i don't think we are in a position to be in any kind of major conflict. The border, record inflation, soaring energy prices. All things that could be cured if the current administration wasn't such a bunch of clowns. Can you imagine getting into a major conflict with these morons in charge. By the way they said Joe went home for the weekend. He needed some rest. The leader of the free world. Right!!! 

What I can't imagine is the tired Biden is weak, mindless drivel that the right wing - including you - continue to spread as just a political strategy.  Putting politics and worship of the Orange Travesty above truth and country.  Hint: when the country is in crisis/war it is expected that real Americans rally behind and support their president.  You know "united we stand, divided we fall"  Instead lets all follow the Putin Propaganda Department known as Fox with Tucker and Hannity and endlessly support the disinformation and division Putin's friends are putting out.  Hell Tucker is the number one celebrity on Russian (Putin controlled) media.  But hey, the whole war is Biden's fault for being weak.  OK, I will play.  What SPECIFICALLY would you be doing differently or would have done differently? While you are at it answer: How many mutual security agreements have there been between Ukraine and Russia?  When did Ukraine become an independent nation?  What were the conditions on that independence?  Who guaranteed their security in exchange for what commitment from Ukraine? Which side broke that understanding? What are the Minsk agreements 1 and 2, and who withdrew from from and why?  If what Biden has done shows weakness to Putin, then what did Trump doing the following say about "strength": Taking Putin's side against our own intelligence agencies.  Praising Putin constantly as smart, savvy and strong.  Exchanging love letters with Kim (Trump's wording not mine). Threatening to withdraw from NATO.  Ignoring the civil war supported by Russia in the eastern provinces of Ukraine.  Withholding US military aid to Ukraine as blackmail to get created dirt on Biden.  Supporting the deposed factions in Ukraine that gave it the reputation of one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Allowing Turkey to invade Syria and slaughter our allies the Kurds. Allowing the Russians and their puppet Assad to use chemical weapons on women and children. Answer all of that (and there is much, much more) and you will convince me you know enough about what is really going on to be howling at the moon over Biden weakness and doing everything wrong.  Don't forget the "what exactly would you do?" part.  And yes, that all goes for the other one liner hit and run artist as well.

[Bit Banger]

It’s not like CNN or NBC are any better than Fox.  They just spin a different direction.

As I recall the Red line regarding Assad’s chemical weapons was drawn, and crossed, during Pres. Obama’s administration.  And wasn’t VP Biden caught on tape threatening to with-hold aid from Ukraine?

So I’d say there’s plenty of blame to go around.  It’s not a ‘one side fits all’ situation.

[gr8owl]

2017 was Trump

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/04/1061402

Yes, Biden was "caught" (laughable because never did he try to hide it, he was bragging) on tape saying that he had gotten a Ukrainian prosecutor fired - for years of corruption and with the support of multiple nations familiar with the prosecutor's  activities.  Trump and the boys tried to spin it as Biden going after him because he was going to investigate Burisma.  Zero evidence was presented, as usual, because there was none and that was not the reason.  Tons of evidence supported Biden version.

CNN and NBC are not repeating Putin's propaganda and being replayed on Russian tv to help dupe the Russian people.  Pretty damn effective that Tucker Carlson - deceiving BOTH sides with his pure bullshit.  No it is not even remotely the same.  Carlson is an active agent of Russian propaganda.  That is not spin.

As to there is plenty of blame to go around - YES!! Absolutely agree!  That was my point - stop with the idiotic Biden bashing for nothing other than political reasons and claiming that everything wrong in the world and country is Biden's fault.  Some of it is, but it is some seriously delusional bs to claim it all is.  That is the post I responded to.

[Newoldbull]

The Russians didn't start massing troops on the Ukranian border until after Biden was in office. He may be evil but he's not stupid. Why did Biden wait until after the invasion was in full swing to impose sanctions on Russia. They didn't put sanctions on their oil and gas until just in recent days. Now he's trying to blame Putin for our soaring energy costs. On day one  he declared war on our domestic oil production but in the mean time imported oil from Russia. Now they are talking about importing oil from Venezuela and Iran. Are you fucking kidding me! They must think the American people are stupid. If you think I have a problem with the way Biden is doing things you have hit the nail on the head. You don't have to watch any news channel to realize he is a total disaster. I think your hatred of Trump has blinded you to what is actually happening now. 

[gr8owl]

26 minutes ago, Newoldbull said:

The Russians didn't start massing troops on the Ukranian border until after Biden was in office. He may be evil but he's not stupid. Why did Biden wait until after the invasion was in full swing to impose sanctions on Russia. They didn't put sanctions on their oil and gas until just in recent days. Now he's trying to blame Putin for our soaring energy costs. On day one  he declared war on our domestic oil production but in the mean time imported oil from Russia. Now they are talking about importing oil from Venezuela and Iran. Are you fucking kidding me! They must think the American people are stupid. If you think I have a problem with the way Biden is doing things you have hit the nail on the head. You don't have to watch any news channel to realize he is a total disaster. I think your hatred of Trump has blinded you to what is actually happening now. 

My hatred of Trump is exactly why I also hate Putin and all other soul-less evil fucks.  It blinds me to nothing, rather it is there because I am NOT blind.  Biden does not import oil.  The multi-national oil companies do.  You do not enact a penalty (sanctions) for something BEFORE it happens.  And it does not happen over night when you are asking for 29 other countries in NATO to weigh in. You were thinking about it so we are going to penalize you??  OK, sure.  No, he is not planning to import oil from Venezuela.  He is trying to get them to backfill the international demand IF we lift sanctions as a result of them agreeing to do something.  Do you want prices to go down or not?  Do you want the president to try to convert Russian allies or not? Iran - ditto plus come back to the nuclear agreement.  Yeah, I  know but better than nothing and sanctions are only hurting the little people and not stopping them from proceeding with nuclear program. Nationally we do not have to import from anyone - just stop exporting.  Second choice buy more from Canada.  But it is the oil companies, investment bankers and major stockholders that set the INTERNATIONAL price of oil and oil futures.  Prices will remain high as long as that pack of jackals is nervous about such things as major ground wars in Europe.  That is FAR more important than any increase in production we were to do domestically. Lastly, as usual with trump supporters you accuse others of what you do -  having an irrational hatred for your boy when in fact it is YOU that has an irrational hatred of Biden based solely upon what a bunch of proven liars feed you.  Me - I see BOTH as significantly flawed but the former having many more totally unacceptable flaws.  I just am getting really tired of the constant whine and howl of anything to make Biden fail and get voted out.  Especially when we are at a point of possible major war.  BTW you don't think the constant drone of division along with some talking secession or civil war does not give Putin the idea we are weak?  At times like this you get behind the president because if he does not succeed we are all screwed.  Whatever.  Facts are facts.  I don't care what opinion you come to - free country - just get your facts straight first.

[Newoldbull]

2 hours ago, gr8owl said:

My hatred of Trump is exactly why I also hate Putin and all other soul-less evil fucks.  It blinds me to nothing, rather it is there because I am NOT blind.  Biden does not import oil.  The multi-national oil companies do.  You do not enact a penalty (sanctions) for something BEFORE it happens.  And it does not happen over night when you are asking for 29 other countries in NATO to weigh in. You were thinking about it so we are going to penalize you??  OK, sure.  No, he is not planning to import oil from Venezuela.  He is trying to get them to backfill the international demand IF we lift sanctions as a result of them agreeing to do something.  Do you want prices to go down or not?  Do you want the president to try to convert Russian allies or not? Iran - ditto plus come back to the nuclear agreement.  Yeah, I  know but better than nothing and sanctions are only hurting the little people and not stopping them from proceeding with nuclear program. Nationally we do not have to import from anyone - just stop exporting.  Second choice buy more from Canada.  But it is the oil companies, investment bankers and major stockholders that set the INTERNATIONAL price of oil and oil futures.  Prices will remain high as long as that pack of jackals is nervous about such things as major ground wars in Europe.  That is FAR more important than any increase in production we were to do domestically. Lastly, as usual with trump supporters you accuse others of what you do -  having an irrational hatred for your boy when in fact it is YOU that has an irrational hatred of Biden based solely upon what a bunch of proven liars feed you.  Me - I see BOTH as significantly flawed but the former having many more totally unacceptable flaws.  I just am getting really tired of the constant whine and howl of anything to make Biden fail and get voted out.  Especially when we are at a point of possible major war.  BTW you don't think the constant drone of division along with some talking secession or civil war does not give Putin the idea we are weak?  At times like this you get behind the president because if he does not succeed we are all screwed.  Whatever.  Facts are facts.  I don't care what opinion you come to - free country - just get your facts straight first.

I don't think you will have to worry if he gets reelected or not. I know alot of rational democrats who are saying WTF! I started this thread complimenting the Ukrainian people and here we are arguing over the same old bullshit. My head is getting sore from beating my against the wall. Im done responding other than to say he won't run again because of his age and his obvious cognitive ability. His policies might make alot of difference in which way people pull the lever next time.

[gr8owl]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:06 PM, Newoldbull said:

I don't think you will have to worry if he gets reelected or not. I know alot of rational democrats who are saying WTF! I started this thread complimenting the Ukrainian people and here we are arguing over the same old bullshit. My head is getting sore from beating my against the wall. Im done responding other than to say he won't run again because of his age and his obvious cognitive ability. His policies might make alot of difference in which way people pull the lever next time.

And perfectly polite discussion ensued until you flew off the rails in your third post and started the "its all Biden's fault" diatribe.  You want a fact based discussion of what is going on, great, lets do it, but lets base it on facts.  For instance lets start with the soaring oil prices.  All the Trumpies are screaming at top of lungs "all Biden's fault!!" But what are the facts?  In an attempt to prop up oil prices Trump brokered a deal in 2020 with OPEC Plus - key members Saudi Arabia, Russia, United Arab Emirates - to CUT oil production for TWO YEARS.  He and his supporters were all proud and clutching their pearls over how brilliant he was in getting this agreement.  We are still under that production cut orchestrated by Trump until May of this year.  So it is Biden's fault oil prices are up?  As usual just spin and the facts say something different.  You can read about it at link below.  Just so you can't complain about slant the link is Fox's coverage of said agreement. They were very proud of his efforts.  As I have said many times - I believe in letting the facts guide my opinions, not propaganda.  You might try it - it works better than beating your head against the wall insisting on a false narrative.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/trump-saudi-arabia-russia-opec-oil-deal-role