Kaduk

"I Always Encouraged Her to Be Strong"

63 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Disagree, I think they broke the terms of their agreement when they said it was a "Taking Back the Right" rally and Nazi's showed up. The mayor in an interview also mentioned that these groups stashed weapons all over the parks. There is a lot of video evidence of these extreme groups trying to incite violence. ...

 

One group had the courtesy to ask before they gathered in the public square. They came expecting trouble. The other group came unbidden, actively looking for it. Both sides have a history of inciting violence. Just ask Berkeley.

Nazis are part of the Right, just as Communists are part of the Left. Neither is what I would call mainstream. 

1 hour ago, Lucy Kitten said:

... These groups that are setting up these "protests" are the very heart of white supremacy do you really want to let them speak?

 

Do you really want to silence them? What will you say when The Mob wants to silence you because they disagree with your beliefs?  

It's a very slippery slope. 🙁

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1 hour ago, Lucy Kitten said:

I'm getting tired of these both sides and Nazi's have rights too arguments. Maybe I should watch Schindler's List again so I can contemplate both sides of the story. Oskar Schindler today would labeled Antifa Snowflake and Amon Goeth would be mistunderstood and just exercising his rights. 

Normally I agree with you on the more sensitive issues but this one no way. I don't care about Nazi's right to speak. I don't care to give a platform to people who believe in genocide. We're living in the upside down no reason not to believe that history is trying hard to repeat itself. These groups that are setting up these "protests" are the very heart of white supremacy do you really want to let them speak?

 

A couple hundred inbred idiots calling themselves Nazis and doing jackass salutes does not make them real Nazis.  Ask people who survived concentration camps if these are the same type of people who managed to murder up to twenty million people.  Its frankly insulting.  

And yes, I want them to speak.  There's no better way to discredit them than let them speak.  I've seen KKK and neoNazi rallies before, they've always been pathetic.  Do you realize what is actually happening instead?  People who wouldn't have given them a second thought are now reacting in exactly the opposite way, they're seeing what happened, where  and becoming sympathetic.  Will they convert to their ideals?  Oh no.  But they're seeing people saying they have no right to speak, that they don't have basic human rights because of their ideas.  Normal people are seeing how dangerous the thought police are being and it's revolting to them.  Be very careful with wanting to strip rights from a group of people based on their ideas, because when the political winds change, that power will be used against y our groups.

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3 hours ago, JoDoe27 said:

 ...

As for the statues in Baltimore...I guess I view that as the people have spoken and the government reacted as such. I can't say if it's right or wrong but how about we give voice to those that aren't always heard? I see no difference or anymore aquiesence to those wanting it removed than those demanding it stay.   I know, where does it end? 

The people have spoken? How many?  Were they even constituents? Or was it some Mob in another town acting unlawfully?

If the citizens of Baltimore had come before the city council and requested this action, or if there was a public referendum, I would have no problem with their actions. But responding to the riots in New Orleans or Durham ... (or so it seems).

And to think this furor over Confederate symbols started when some idiot walked into a church and shot a group of people. I know, it's been a smoldering issue for some. It's a good thing they couldn't find any political skeletons in the Aurora theater shooter's closet. 

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thanks Kudak! she seemed like an amazing lady! I can only hope that her mother continues the good will her daughter had intended to spread that day! just killed so fucking needlessly, smh!

this subject can only spin sideways really quickly!! the intent was golden. but it's like talking about other core topics that divide us as a nation.

it's always interesting reading peoples thoughts and words. as it enlightens me on their positions with a topic like this.........

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6 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

One group had the courtesy to ask before they gathered in the public square. They came expecting trouble. The other group came unbidden, actively looking for it. Both sides have a history of inciting violence. Just ask Berkeley.

Nazis are part of the Right, just as Communists are part of the Left. Neither is what I would call mainstream. 

Do you really want to silence them? What will you say when The Mob wants to silence you because they disagree with your beliefs?  

It's a very slippery slope. 🙁

If my beliefs were racial cleansing and wanting to repeal the Civil Right Act then yes I would expect to be silenced. It wasn't just one group that had their party trashed. These people keep in contact and plan these things. I suggest watching the little documentary that VICE (the media outlet) made.

Saying that Commies are part of the left is part of the bullshit rhetoric that these hate groups want you to believe. Just like they want you to believe that both sides are soooo bad. That's ridiculous.

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6 hours ago, FuriousWeasel said:

A couple hundred inbred idiots calling themselves Nazis and doing jackass salutes does not make them real Nazis.  Ask people who survived concentration camps if these are the same type of people who managed to murder up to twenty million people.  Its frankly insulting.  

And yes, I want them to speak.  There's no better way to discredit them than let them speak.  I've seen KKK and neoNazi rallies before, they've always been pathetic.  Do you realize what is actually happening instead?  People who wouldn't have given them a second thought are now reacting in exactly the opposite way, they're seeing what happened, where  and becoming sympathetic.  Will they convert to their ideals?  Oh no.  But they're seeing people saying they have no right to speak, that they don't have basic human rights because of their ideas.  Normal people are seeing how dangerous the thought police are being and it's revolting to them.  Be very careful with wanting to strip rights from a group of people based on their ideas, because when the political winds change, that power will be used against y our groups.

Except there have been lots of people who have survived WWII and they're fucking appalled by what's going on. I don't think they're insulted when you call people who want to be Nazi's, Nazis. Why did we even go to war to fight Nazi's only to bring their bullshit ideology back to America and protect it under free speech. I think survivors and veterans are more disappointed than anything. It took America a long time to disavow Nazi's the first time, you'd think it would be easier after all the history crammed down our throats. I guess my perspective is different if we the people care about the survivors of concentration camps we should push back on this shit. Frankly I think it's insulting to defend the free speech of hate groups while using victims.

And how are we going to discredit them by letting them speak? These groups are more emboldened than ever before, was this past weekend and conversations like this not enough to make people realize how much America sympathizes with white supremacists? The beliefs of these hate groups are hardly secrets and we have been letting these hate groups roam free for far too long. What I see are hate groups gaming the system, hiding behind free speech while they spend all their time on 4Chan and Reddit making plans and provoking anyone they can.

Stashing weapons, encouraging violence and using a car in a terrorist attack. That doesn't seem so pathetic to me. That seems dangerous and threatening. These aren't just a couple hundred inbred idiots. These are college educated idiots with jobs. To discredit them in that way only gives them more power.

 

"The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum also expressed alarm at the events and condemned "the violence and neo-Nazi, racist, and antisemitic symbols and language used by some of the participants, including reported chants of, 'The Jews will not replace us.'"

"Neo-Nazism in any form is antithetical to American values and has no place in American society," the Washington, D.C., museum said in a statement."

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58 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

If my beliefs were racial cleansing and wanting to repeal the Civil Right Act then yes I would expect to be silenced. It wasn't just one group that had their party trashed. These people keep in contact and plan these things. I suggest watching the little documentary that VICE (the media outlet) made.

Saying that Commies are part of the left is part of the bullshit rhetoric that these hate groups want you to believe. Just like they want you to believe that both sides are soooo bad. That's ridiculous.

I watched it late last night. Have you seen the twitter post The of main guy she was following once he found out there was a warrant for his arrest?

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7 hours ago, Mr.Pink said:

morris dees is the sleeze bag that runs the splc racket....sorry get your facts straight, these antifas communists showed up with helmets, clubs, bags filled with piss and shit. these antifas scum got a police escort into this melee...i have no doubt the scumbag democrat governor and mayor are complicit in the violence.

 

777.jpg

The funny part about this it's not just "the left" pointing out Trump's blunder in this situation. His own party has rightfully issued blame against him. 

And please drop the notion Obama wasn't blamed for any of those things. The biggest difference here is all of BLM and black people in general were lumped together where as for some reason we know have lone wolves and extremists that don't represent white as a whole. I wonder why that is. 

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7 hours ago, Mr.Pink said:

morris dees is the sleeze bag that runs the splc racket....sorry get your facts straight, these antifas communists showed up with helmets, clubs, bags filled with piss and shit. these antifas scum got a police escort into this melee...i have no doubt the scumbag democrat governor and mayor are complicit in the violence.

 

777.jpg

Bullshit and more bullshit. How about some evidence to back up those claims. The whole damn thing was captured on video.

Why does it always have to be about hating Obama and BLM? I don't recall David Duke openly thanking Obama for giving him a platform to take America back. So yeah the dumb "lefty antifa commies" are totally gonna blame Trump. When DAVID DUKE is speaking up for your president and you wanna blame Obama. Jebus is that backwards.

"We're going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump, and that's what we believed in, that's why we voted for Donald Trump, because he said he's going to take our country back and that's what we gotta do," Duke told reporters on Saturday.

Guess what? That picture isn't of antifa commies.

 

DHXfcIaVwAUvY8-.jpg:large

 

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29 minutes ago, JoDoe27 said:

I watched it late last night. Have you seen the twitter post The of main guy she was following once he found out there was a warrant for his arrest?

 

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Also, with the talk of permits I goofed here...these events took place in a public park. People can enter and leave as they please even if another event is planned and permit is not required.

Some digging on my part found White Nationalists had a permit for Emancipation Park.  Walt Heinecke received a special events certificate of approval for McGuffey and Justice Park. UVA also has open access and a permit is not required to march or protest on campus. 

So are we all clear on permits now?

 

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8 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

One group had the courtesy to ask before they gathered in the public square. They came expecting trouble. The other group came unbidden, actively looking for it. 

...

Sorry, I had it wrong. Both groups had permits, or didn't need them. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/08/16/president-trumps-false-claim-that-counter-demonstrators-lacked-a-permit/?utm_term=.eceb1263abcc

Please note the date on Washington Post article, 8/16. 

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2 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

 

Saying that Commies are part of the left is part of the bullshit rhetoric that these hate groups want you to believe. Just like they want you to believe that both sides are soooo bad. That's ridiculous.

Where in the political spectrum would you place Communists?

Are all Left leaning groups peaceful and non-violent?  Let's ask the folks in Baltimore, Ferguson, Detroit('67), or Chicago('68). The true tragedy is that outside protesters destroyed these neighborhoods. Are there Right leaning groups prone to violence?  Of course! Look at the history of the KKK for example. But examine the list of riots over the last 10 years. Who was at the heart of these incidents?

I remember when the Nazi Party wanted to march through the streets of Skokie, IL, a town filled with Holocaust survivors (back in the 70s). Distasteful, yes! But when the village tried to deny them permits, both the ACLU and the courts disagreed. The ACLU caught a lot of flack & lost membership for that position, protecting Free Speech. 

When people think of a Michael Douglas monologue, they often think of "Greed is good." from Wall Street. I prefer his defense of the ACLU in American President.

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My heart is heavy by how divided we have become and the violence that it breeds.  

Today and each day forward we should be the force to change negativity into positivity.  It can start with a smile.  Get your smiles on!!

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1 hour ago, Bit Banger said:

...

When people think of a Michael Douglas monologue, they often think of "Greed is good." from Wall Street. I prefer his defense of the ACLU in American President.

Sorry, it took me a while to find the clip. 

 

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4 hours ago, JoDoe27 said:

The funny part about this it's not just "the left" pointing out Trump's blunder in this situation. His own party has rightfully issued blame against him. 

And please drop the notion Obama wasn't blamed for any of those things. The biggest difference here is all of BLM and black people in general were lumped together where as for some reason we know have lone wolves and extremists that don't represent white as a whole. I wonder why that is. 

PROLLY HAVING TO DO WITH HIS OWN PARTY MEMBERS ARE OWNED BY THE DEEP STATE....NAME ME ONE TIME THE SO CALLED PRESS EVAR CRITICIZED OBAMA? THEY ARE NOTHING BUT SHILLS FOR THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZER OBAMA. 

HELL YEA.jpg

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I just read an interesting analogy. 

"He {Maine Gov. LePage} also compared protesters who seek the removal of Confederate statues to the "Taliban in Afghanistan" and said they are ignorant of the history they seek to erase. "

Remember when the Taliban were tearing down ancient monuments. Or more recently ISIS. 

Edited by Bit Banger
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14 hours ago, Yorick said:

The SPLC just said I am a member of a hate group that does just that.  I've never done that in my life, nor have any of my Libertarian friends. The SPLC is just ignorant if they think that. And anyone who believes their shit is ignorant, too.

This thread is intended to do only one thing. Make people angry.  It has succeeded.

This is my last post on this subject. 

I am going to take my hateful Libertarian ass outta here, go find some hateful Libertarian wench with huge boobs, and pay her a butt-load of money to have non-government-endorsed-consensual-wild-monkey-sex.  'Cause thats how we hateful Libertarians roll......

I apologize for the wording; "the eight hate Groups".   and should used the phrase---> " the targeting of these  Groups" pertaining to the Flier/Poster that was distributed  by the so-called “Unite The Right” rally organizer white nationalist Jason Kessler. My emphases was to link to the flags. As I now look at the videos that surfaced from the March in Charlottesville & seeing the many flags that promote the various white supremacy movements.

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1 hour ago, Bit Banger said:

I just read an interesting analogy. 

"He {Maine Gov. LePage} also compared protesters who seek the removal of Confederate statues to the "Taliban in Afghanistan" and said they are ignorant of the history they seek to erase. "

Remember when the Taliban were tearing down ancient monuments. Or more recently ISIS. 

I try not to make those comparisons but if we are then the White Nationalism is on par with the National Socialist Party. Correct? 

Arming themselves, screaming white power, an idea that Jews and blacks are taking over and ruining things...I mean that sounds awfully familiar  

 

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1 hour ago, JoDoe27 said:

I try not to make those comparisons but if we are then the White Nationalism is on par with the National Socialist Party. Correct? 

Arming themselves, screaming white power, an idea that Jews and blacks are taking over and ruining things...I mean that sounds awfully familiar  

 

I won't disagree. One must also remember the economic times and the sanctions imposed by the winners of WW I. The Bolshevicks were running around, whipping the crowd to a frenzy. A popular speaker, promising hope & change, was elected to office. Scary times!

Today is no less scary. We have an Oriental nation rattling their saber.  We have an economy oscillating between euphoria and the doldrums. We have riots in the streets. Add in the unrest in the Middle East threatening our way of life.  These are the times that benevolent despots rise, and then crush The People. 

But does Charlottesville or Berkeley  foretell our Kristallnacht?

One thing we need to be very careful about here. Hitler would play all three sides of a riot: two groups would start a fight, then his troops would swoop in, quell the violence, and claim the hero's laurel. And after each riot, a little bit of freedom disappeared. Like boiling a frog.

Who is the Puppeteer? I don't think he (or she) is on the stage yet. 

{ruminations}

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 11:27 AM, Bit Banger said:

I just read an interesting analogy. 

"He {Maine Gov. LePage} also compared protesters who seek the removal of Confederate statues to the "Taliban in Afghanistan" and said they are ignorant of the history they seek to erase. "

Remember when the Taliban were tearing down ancient monuments. Or more recently ISIS. 

bringing down the Confederate statue recently in Durham, N.C. reminded me of the Iraqi people destroying any Suddam Hussein's monument once he was forced to flee as president.

Gov LePage's analogy is more reflective of the current leader of this country erasing what Obama has implemented in the previous 8 years. the erasing of Obama's legacy is clearly evident. and what is the reasoning? it's so perplexing that the ignorant, the ill qualified, and the known insecure get voted into positions of power?!

and when it comes to LePage. we have to be tongue and cheek about his aptitude and competency, because this guy is actually a governor.........

and not to be too repetitive. but if the shoe fits........

 

Edited by parkercole
another vid
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On 8/15/2017 at 4:52 PM, Kaduk said:

screenshot-metro.co.uk 2017-08-15 16-29-57.jpg

"I Always Encouraged Her to Be Strong" - Susan Bro

The power of the press rests in convincing you that the symptoms are greater than the cause. 

I'd like to think that Kaduk was simply commemorating the loss of a beautiful soul to needless acts of random violence. 

I'm not sure why Kaduk decided to honor this particular victim amongst the thousands, but I am sure that it doesn't matter. 

I'm not going to expound political impetus here. 

What I will do, is give a thought and prayer to Heather Heyer and her family. Equal sentiments go out to Kate Steinle and Phoebe Prince.

Roses torn from this ash covered earth are irremediable holes in humanity

 

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"We must remember that one group applied for, and received, a permit for their rally. As is appropriate under the 1st Amendment. The other group just showed up, without permits, prepared for battle." No, that's a falsehood. Please stop spreading falsehoods about these events. I doubt if my request will have the slightest effect but I'm making it anyway.

Quote

 

President Trump’s false claim that counterprotesters lacked a permit.

"Walt Heinecke, a professor at the University of Virginia, told Moyer that he received a “special events certificate of approval” for events at McGuffey Park and Justice Park — sites blocks from Emancipation Park, where white nationalists had a permit for a Saturday rally. A car allegedly driven by James Alex Fields Jr. rammed into counterprotesters, killing a" 32-year-old woman, on Fourth Street, which runs adjacent to Justice Park."

The document is below, with Heinecke’s address and cellphone number removed.

 

In addition,

Quote

 

Charlottesville spokeswoman Miriam I. Dickler told Moyer that only one permit was issued for Emancipation Park — the one received by white nationalists staging the “Unite the Right” rally. However, counterprotesters did not need permits to protest that rally, she said.

“Please bear in mind that people do not need a permit to enter a public park, even when another event is scheduled to take place there, nor are they required to have one to be on streets or sidewalks adjacent to or outside the park,” Dickler said in an email.

 

 

 

To summarize, the counter-protesters to the "Unite the Right" march had a permit for their event at two nearby public parks. In addition, according to the city spokesperson, it is legal for individuals to protest a political rally held in a public space (park street, etc) without a permit. And the Charlottesville police chief made another point:
 

Quote

 

On Saturday, when the major violence occurred, people started gathering in Emancipation Park. Charlottesville Police Chief Al S. Thomas Jr. told The Post the white-nationalist groups went back on a plan that would have kept them separated from the counterprotesters. The two sides started clashing, and by 11:22 a.m. police had declared an unlawful assembly.

 

 

 

So the "Unite the RIght" groups broke their word to stay away from the counter-protesters and reduce the possibility of violent confrontation on Saturday.

However, before the main rally and counter-protest on Saturday, some things happened on the University of Virginia campus on Friday night. It is false and misleading to say that the "Unite the Right" people had a permit for their Friday night march on the University of Virginia campus while the counter-protesters did not have a permit. In fact, neither side had a permit then, for the simple reason that the University of Virginia does not require any permit for public events including political demonstrations held on their outdoor public spaces such as the "historic lawn". (The university does control access to buildings on the campus.)

Quote

 

On the night before the Saturday march, about 250 white nationalists carrying torches marched on campus and confronted 20 to 30 students who had locked arms around the base of a statue of Thomas Jefferson, according to the Washington Post. Clashes occurred there, leaving some injured.

The White House pointed to the president’s statement from Trump Tower that "I looked the night before -- if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. ... You had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest -- because I don’t know if you know, they had a permit.  The other group didn’t have a permit." (Emphasis by the White House.)

However, there are a few problems with this explanation.

First, no permit was required for any protest on the University of Virginia campus, either from the university (which has jurisdiction on the campus) or the city (which does not).

"The University does not require permits to use public spaces," said University of Virginia spokesman Anthony P. de Bruyn. "Existing university policy speaks only to the ability to access university-owned facilities such as academic buildings and performance venues."

He added that "the University of Virginia is a public institution, and as such must abide by state and federal law regarding the general public’s right to access outdoor spaces. This includes open spaces such as … our historic Lawn."

So if Trump meant to refer to the Friday night protest, then he’s wrong here, too. Neither side had permits because there were none to give.

 

 

Finally, President Trump's claim that the Unite the Right groups protested "very quietly" is totally contradicted by eyewitness accounts and videos of the events.

Quote

Documentary footage by Vice shows clearly that marchers shouted "blood and soil" -- a slogan from Nazi Germany -- and "Jews will not replace us." That’s not a case of "people protesting very quietly," as Trump said.

So the SHOUTED message "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US" was a message that the Unite the Right groups chose to broadcast to the world. An odd-sounding phrase, but obviously they meant something by it. I've read some detailed explanations of what they meant, do you want to get into that if these issues are so important to you?

sources: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/aug/17/donald-trump/donald-trump-wrong-charlottesville-counter-protest/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/08/16/president-trumps-false-claim-that-counter-demonstrators-lacked-a-permit/?utm_term=.dba2ddedeb89

Edited by N6_in_the_village
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Follow-up: I see now that Bit Banger posted a brief message in which he made the same correction that I did (at greater length), after he read the same Washington Post article I cited. I apologize to Bit Banger for missing that message before posting mine!

However, to my knowledge, President Trump has not retracted any of his false and misleading statements about these events, so just consider my post to be a response to the President, whose words (unfortunately) have far greater reach than Bit Banger's.

 

 

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interesting to see the wide spectrum of positions about our troubled times remember you can be a good person with a kind spirit and still tell people to go fuck themselves when needed JUST SAY IT WITH A SMILE

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:56 AM, Bit Banger said:

Sorry, it took me a while to find the clip. 

 

that is right on

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All this talk about permits... is it really relevant? A nazi with a permit is guess what?! Still a freaking nazi!!!

Rip Heather Heyer. 💜 

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On 8/16/2017 at 9:44 PM, Yorick said:

The SPLC just said I am a member of a hate group that does just that.  I've never done that in my life, nor have any of my Libertarian friends. The SPLC is just ignorant if they think that. And anyone who believes their shit is ignorant, too.

This thread is intended to do only one thing. Make people angry.  It has succeeded.

This is my last post on this subject. 

I am going to take my hateful Libertarian ass outta here, go find some hateful Libertarian wench with huge boobs, and pay her a butt-load of money to have non-government-endorsed-consensual-wild-monkey-sex.  'Cause thats how we hateful Libertarians roll......

Hi Yorick,

Thank you for making a post about the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) and Libertarianism, and then stating this is your last post on the subject and leaving the thread.

Unfortunately, after my own perusal of the SPLC "Hate Watch" web site, and search of the site for the word "Libertarian", I'm concerned you may be repeating a false claim that the SPLC said the Libertarian Party or Libertarian movement in the United States is a "hate group", when I see no evidence that the SPLC said anything like that. From my own search, the false claim likely originates from a total misreading of an article where the word "Libertarian" is used once and the word "libertarianism" is used once. I will explain further, but first an aside on a related topic:

I no longer consider the SPLC to be a trustworthy guide to hate groups. I used to consider them trustworthy some number (I don't remember which number) of years ago. However in recent years I've seen criticism that they've started to lump in groups that I would consider "kooky" or even "totally nuts" but not necessarily "espousing hate". And more recently, they created a list of "anti-Moslem extremists" that includes at least two people I believe are legitimate critics of Islamic fundamentalism and extremism, and not extremists themselves (and grew up in Islamic societies): Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. (There is a Change.org petition asking for removal of these specific people from the SPLC list, see https://www.change.org/p/southern-poverty-law-center-remove-maajid-nawaz-and-ayaan-hirsi-ali-from-the-splc-s-list-of-anti-muslim-extremists )

However, back to "SPLC said Libertarian Party or movement is a hate group" claim: I think this claim traces to the following brief article "Flags and Other Symbols Used By Far-Right Groups in Charlottesville" (link at bottom of this post). (People who study far-right groups in the US know these groups place a lot of importance on flags, symbols, and slogans.) The basis of the article is a poster advertising the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally - that's the connection to this thread. The poster shows fragments of flags of eight "movements" or "groups" (that the author of the poster considers to be part of the political Right) being united into a serpent-like creature with the words "Join or Die" underneath the serpent. That may seem kind of freaky. Actually, it's a parody of a famous political cartoon from two decades before the American Revolution, drawn by Benjamin Franklin himself, calling on the 13 colonies to "Join [to form a new nation] or Die".

To quote directly from the SPLC article,

Quote

 

The groups depicted include from left to right (K) “Kekistani,” (AC) “Anti-Communist,” (L) “Libertarian,” (N) “Nationalist,” (I) “Identitarian/Identity Evropa,” (SN) “Southern Nationalist,” (NS) “National Socialist,” and (AR) “Alt Right.” The National Socialist flags depicted include Traditionalist Worker Party and Vanguard America.

 

 

 

The letters in parenthesis in this quote are acronyms shown on the rally poster. The spelled-out words are just stating the definitions of the acronyms. (Note: "Kekistan" is an imaginary country invented by alt-right people who post on a particular web site, i.e. basically a joke, while the other seven are supposed to be real groups or movements.) So the only appearance of the word "Libertarian" in the SPLC article is merely spelling out the definition of an acronym in the "Unite the Right poster".

IMPORTANT: IT IS KNOWN FOR CERTAIN THAT THE "L" IN THE POSTER IS INTENDED TO STAND FOR "LIBERTARIAN" (THE SPLC DID NOT MAKE THAT PART UP) BECAUSE JASON KESSLER, THE MAIN ORGANIZER OF THE "UNITE THE RIGHT" RALLY, SAID SO.  Twitter thread: "What does the 'L.' and 'N.' stand for?" Jason Kessler's reply: "I'm told by the designer that they're for 'Libertarian' and 'Nationalist' respectively".

https://twitter.com/themaddimension/status/879865760302215168

The word "libertarianism" then appears once in the article, and now things get very confusing. One problem is that the discussion of the symbols in the bulk of the article does not follow the same order as, and can't even be unscrambled to match exactly, the eight words and symbols in the poster. A second problem is the design of the poster itself: the "L" acronym is next to a symbol that has no conceivable connection to Libertarianism (If I wrote the article everything would be better organized and clearer!!) To quote.
 

Quote

 

"Anti-Communist Action"
A group whose name is an inversion of Anti-Racist Action (ARA), the first and historically largest (at one time) decentralized network of anti-racist and anti-fascist dedicated to confronting the far-right and disrupting their events and rallies through direct action, including violence.

The black and yellow colors refer to libertarianism, typically depicted on web forums under a black and yellow banner. Variations of the flag often feature helicopters dropping a figure from the sky, a reference to Augusto Pinochet’s brutal tactics of suppressing dissent.

 

 

 

Ugh, what a mess! Here is my imagined "fix" if I rewrote the article (wouldn't do it for the SPLC, currently have doubts about them as I explained):

Quote

 

just a "fantasy" revision of the SPLC article by N6_in_the_village)

"(L) Libertarianism"

The creator of the poster made an odd mistake here. The "L" is next to a fragment of a Roman legion battle flag, showing an eagle clutching a bundle of sticks ("fasces" in Latin) and the letters "SPQR" (Senate and People of Rome). This flag was adopted by Mussolini's original Fascist movement - the word "Fascism" comes from "fasces" - and has nothing to do with libertarianism.

On the other hand, there is a weak connection to Libertarianism in the "(AC) Anti-Communist" flag: the black on yellow color scheme matches the famous Gadsden flag of the American revolution, and recently popular in the Libertarian and Tea Party movements, which shows a coiled snake with the words "Don't Tread On Me". However, as shown in the illustrations, the best-known version of the "Anti-Communist" flag depicts a man being thrown out of a helicopter - a brutal technique for executing political opponents used by South American dictators such as Pinochet in Chile. The following is just my personal opinion, but in context this disgusting symbology looks like an insult to the Gadsden flag, as well as a warning to Libertarians or Tea Party members to stay far away from this rally.

 

 

I've explained as best I can the connection between the symbols in the poster, Libertarianism, and the brief SPLC article, I think it's obvious that the SPLC was not accusing Libertarians of belonging to a "hate group", they were merely repeating the "(L) Libertarian" used by the designer of the poster (confirmed by rally organizer Jason Kessler) in their discussion of the words and symbols in the poster.

IN CONCLUSION: If you're unhappy about the word "Libertarianism" being linked to this "Unite the Right" rally (with it's heavy White Nationalist and neoNazi presence) your beef is with the un-named poster designer and Mr. Kessler, not the SPLC!

P.S. Too bad Yorick has permanently left this thread. Although he was angrier than me (when he wrote his post), I spent a lot more time untangling the meaning of the poster, and untangling the SPLC article, and explaining why his anger at SPLC (in this instance) seems based on a misunderstanding.

 

 

 

 

Edited by N6_in_the_village
i hate speling misteaks
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11 minutes ago, N6_in_the_village said:

Hi Yorick,

Thank you for making a post about the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) and Libertarianism, and then stating this is your last post on the subject and leaving the thread.

Unfortunately, after my own perusal of the SPLC "Hate Watch" web site, and search of the site for the word "Libertarian", I'm concerned you may be repeating a false claim that the SPLC said the Libertarian Party or Libertarian movement in the United States is a "hate group", when I see no evidence that the SPLC said anything like that. From my own search, the false claim likely originates from a total misreading of an article where the word "Libertarian" is used once and the word "libertarianism" is used once. I will explain further, but first an aside on a related topic:

I no longer consider the SPLC to be a trustworthy guide to hate groups. I used to consider them trustworthy some number (I don't remember which number) of years ago. However in recent years I've seen criticism that they've started to lump in groups that I would consider "kooky" or even "totally nuts" but not necessarily "espousing hate". And more recently, they created a list of "anti-Moslem extremists" that includes at least two people I believe are legitimate critics of Islamic fundamentalism and extremism, and not extremists themselves (and grew up in Islamic societies): Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. (There is a Change.org petition asking for removal of these specific people from the SPLC list, see https://www.change.org/p/southern-poverty-law-center-remove-maajid-nawaz-and-ayaan-hirsi-ali-from-the-splc-s-list-of-anti-muslim-extremists )

However, back to "SPLC said Libertarian Party or movement is a hate group" claim: I think this claim traces to the following brief article "Flags and Other Symbols Used By Far-Right Groups in Charlottesville" (link at bottom of this post). (People who study far-right groups in the US know these groups place a lot of importance on flags, symbols, and slogans.) The basis of the article is a poster advertising the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally - that's the connection to this thread. The poster shows fragments of flags of eight "movements" or "groups" (that the author of the poster considers to be part of the political Right) being united into a serpent-like creature with the words "Join or Die" underneath the serpent. That may seem kind of freaky. Actually, it's a parody of a famous political cartoon from two decades before the American Revolution, drawn by Benjamin Franklin himself, calling on the 13 colonies to "Join [to form a new nation] or Die".

To quote directly from the SPLC article,

The letters in parenthesis in this quote are acronyms shown on the rally poster. The spelled-out words are just stating the definitions of the acronyms. (Note: "Kekistan" is an imaginary country invented by alt-right people who post on a particular web site, i.e. basically a joke, while the other seven are supposed to be real groups or movements.) So the only appearance of the word "Libertarian" in the SPLC article is merely spelling out the definition of an acronym in the "Unite the Right poster".

IMPORTANT: IT IS KNOWN FOR CERTAIN THAT THE "L" IN THE POSTER IS INTENDED TO STAND FOR "LIBERTARIAN" (THE SPLC DID NOT MAKE THAT PART UP) BECAUSE JASON KESSLER, THE MAIN ORGANIZER OF THE "UNITE THE RIGHT" RALLY, SAID SO.  Twitter thread: "What does the 'L.' and 'N.' stand for?" Jason Kessler's reply: "I'm told by the designer that they're for 'Libertarian' and 'Nationalist' respectively".

https://twitter.com/themaddimension/status/879865760302215168

The word "libertarianism" then appears once in the article, and now things get very confusing. One problem is that the discussion of the symbols in the bulk of the article does not follow the same order as, and can't even be unscrambled to match exactly, the eight words and symbols in the poster. A second problem is the design of the poster itself: the "L" acronym is next to a symbol that has no conceivable connection to Libertarianism (If I wrote the article everything would be better organized and clearer!!) To quote.
 

Ugh, what a mess! Here is my imagined "fix" if I rewrote the article (wouldn't do it for the SPLC, currently have doubts about them as I explained):

 

I've explained as best I can the connection between the symbols in the poster, Libertarianism, and the brief SPLC article, I think it's obvious that the SPLC was not accusing Libertarians of belonging to a "hate group", they were merely repeating the "(L) Libertarian" used by the designer of the poster (confirmed by rally organizer Jason Kessler) in their discussion of the words and symbols in the poster.

IN CONCLUSION: If you're unhappy about the word "Libertarianism" being linked to this "Unite the Right" rally (with it's heavy White Nationalist and neoNazi presence) your beef is with the un-named poster designer and Mr. Kessler, not the SPLC!

P.S. Too bad Yorick has permanently left this thread. Although he was angrier than me (when he wrote his post), I spent a lot more time untangling the meaning of the poster, and untangling the SPLC article, and explaining why his anger at SPLC (in this instance) seems based on a misunderstanding.

 

 

 

 

I consider myself a Libertarian and was at least as offended by the SPLC as Yorick.  I understand that the SPLC did not ORIGINATE the lame attempt to connect the Libertarian party (PARTY not  movement) to the despicable and disgusting assemblage of nazis and their ilk that showed up in Charlottesville and that are quite active all over.  Kessler is obviously a cluelesss idiot who was trying to achieve some legitimacy by implying a legitimate party with legitimate views (whether you agree with them or not) had the slightest sympathy for his bullshit, when reality is we don't.  But it is inexcusable for the SPLC to just repeat half of Kessler's crap WITHOUT clarifying the inaccuracy of his bullshit when the SPLC wishes to tout itself as a foremost and reliable (should read accurate!!) source of information on such matters.

To be clear, from the Libertarian Party itself, what I consider to be a pretty clear and unequivocal  stand on the matter:

https://www.lp.org/libertarians-condemn-bigotry-irrational-repugnant/

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WHOA!!! To anyone reading my book chapter length post about the "Unite the Right" rally, and a rally announcement poster with acronyms and symbols, and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), and Libertarianism, and how SPLC did not call Libertarians a "hate group" although SPLC has recently f'ed up in other instances ---

Somewhere in the middle, I quoted a Twitter thread by Mr. Jason Kessler, the MAIN ORGANIZER of the "Unite the Right rally", to prove beyond doubt that Mr. Kessler intended to associate the word "Libertarianism" with his rally, and that wasn't just a smear or f'up by the SPLC. Mr. Kessler deleted that thread in "near real time" so my previous link worked 30 minutes ago but doesn't work now. I expect that was a coincidence, Mr. Kessler was just doing some cleanup on Aisle Alt-Right, and isn't actually a TOB reader. If you are reading this, HIYA JASON, stick around and maybe your philosophy and politics will improve.

Stuff. happens. this. is. 2017. Fortunately, here is the Google cached version of the just-deleted thread:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:s-zRHo0ZzZAJ:https://twitter.com/themaddimension/status/879865760302215168+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

and since life comes at you fast and maybe the deep-state globalists at Google won't be able to preserve the cached link here is a screenshot, which lasts forever and ever - screenshot may look kind of small here, but I've got the image file.

 

 

JasonKessler_Libertarianism_01.jpg

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