gb0138

BP-no AA in the ads

132 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, MrBigShot said:

I was simply conceding your point as conveyed to you from your source and was paraphrasing from your earlier post to AHB. Where the "agreement" comes in was with the provider(s) reasoning as told to you. Of course I didn't mean to imply you had first hand evidence of these reasons, neither do I.

It's cool. One thing I know we can ALL agree on. All ladies have the right to say "no" about anything and expect that "no means no" to be respected. Certainly that is true regardless if others disagree with it or don't understand the reasons for it.

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32 minutes ago, Admiral C said:

It's cool. One thing I know we can ALL agree on. All ladies have the right to say "no" about anything and expect that "no means no" to be respected. Certainly that is true regardless if others disagree with it or don't understand the reasons for it.

AMEN, Brother.

The OP's question was not about provider safety, or a provider's right to say "NO". The OP didn't know what the acronym AA meant in the context of the hobby world and wondered out loud why providers would specifically mention Alcoholics Anonymous in their ads. He didn't mean to open up this can of worms, I'm sure.

 

Edited by MrBigShot
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I could be wrong but I am pretty sure it's OK to say black people instead of AA. I have never been to Canada so I couldn't be totally sure but something tells me African Canadian isn't really a thing or has an entirely different meaning than African American.

To be honest I applaud ladies who post their discriminatory preferences out in the open, makes them easier to avoid. I'd rather know up front if someone was harboring nasty opinions so I am not surprised mid-session (which happens both ways, clients have said some crazy things).

I also think it's weird that people want to know why and with such detail why people are racist. . It's also weird to see people trying to not be harmful perpetuate stereotypes. And where did the talk of athletes and their big members come from?

Sure providers have the choice in who they do and don't want to see but it doesn't mean those practices don't often come from a nasty place. Be it someone who is actually racist or someone who is looking to scam dopey white dudes. Count me as one of those that didn't really care for AHB's post but there is kernel of truth in all of that. There are plenty of things said in ads that are meant to draw in a particular type of client and for varying reasons.

 

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So you've just dismissed any arguments that the motives of No AA's in ads weren't racially motivated by the providers and the reasons provided by both AHB and Admiral via "heresay" through their sources are invalid? Therefore they (any provider who specifies No AAs)  must just be racists?

This thread keeps taking fascinating turns

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Boy, MBS, it sure does.  I think that it is unanimously agreed that, of course, a lady can choose to see whoever she wishes, and decline to see whoever she wishes.  After all, the guys do the same thing, by simply not calling certain ladies that are not to their liking, which is precisely  the same thing. John's decision not to call Venus because she is black (or whatever) is precisely  the same thing as Venus letting potential callers know that she does not wish to see blacks (or whatever).

And when that decision is made to treat someone differently solely based upon their race, that choice should never be confused with "racism," not at all.

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BB I think you forgot to put the sarcasm on and off quotes on the last line of your post

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4 minutes ago, BadBoy said:

Boy, MBS, it sure does.  I think that it is unanimously agreed that, of course, a lady can choose to see whoever she wishes, and decline to see whoever she wishes.  After all, the guys do the same thing, by simply not calling certain ladies that are not to their liking, which is precisely  the same thing. John's decision not to call Venus because she is black (or whatever) is precisely  the same thing as Venus letting potential callers know that she does not wish to see blacks (or whatever).

And when that decision is made to treat someone differently solely based upon their race, that choice should never be confused with "racism," not at all.

That last line made me chuckle.

I can say when I first started I was admittedly taken aback and actually had my feelings hurt a bit, but then I moved on. What I do find to be the most interesting thing about the "No AA" is how many come to the defense of it being choice, will go for pages saying how much income a lady will lose should an ad say anything close to encompassing descriptors pertaining to them. Then it's not choice but a bad business decision. 

Further, should any of you ladies that don't see black guys read this. Please stop saying "Sorry No AA." I'm not a fan of sorry not sorry post. Just say you don't see black guys in nice clear letters. Make it bold so it stands out. Own it. And make sure it's stated in all ads including your p411 profiles. I can't tell you how many Excludes I have in P411 because they don't mention it anywhere and then you call or message them. We could save some time, really a few minutes when it comes down to it, but still time is literally money. 

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Perhaps we'll eventually circle back to why Alcoholics Anonymous aren't desirable to some providers to the point where some of them post it in their ads. In the meantime, I'm curious to see the next twist and turn in this thread. We've heard from a client who has been impacted by the practice. Will we hear from a provider who has adopted this practice or will we have to be satisfied with the second hand explains from AHB and Admiral who both claim to be messengers of providers each with differing explains ranging from a scam designed to rip off unsuspecting white dudes to providers not wanting to work very hard because of the stereotypical sexual appetites, well endowed anatomy, physically fit Black Men who like to pound away hard and fast for the entire hour and who may become possible stalkers of Black Providers by asking for dates because they are AA?

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49 minutes ago, BadBoy said:

Boy, MBS, it sure does.  I think that it is unanimously agreed that, of course, a lady can choose to see whoever she wishes, and decline to see whoever she wishes.  After all, the guys do the same thing, by simply not calling certain ladies that are not to their liking, which is precisely  the same thing. John's decision not to call Venus because she is black (or whatever) is precisely  the same thing as Venus letting potential callers know that she does not wish to see blacks (or whatever).

And when that decision is made to treat someone differently solely based upon their race, that choice should never be confused with "racism," not at all.

I get a chuckle out of good sarcasm and irony myself. However, allow me to ask for a clarification. If John is black, and only sees black providers and only dates black women, then by that standard is John ALSO a racist?

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36 minutes ago, MrBigShot said:

Perhaps we'll eventually circle back to why Alcoholics Anonymous aren't desirable to some providers to the point where some of them post it in their ads. In the meantime, I'm curious to see the next twist and turn in this thread. We've heard from a client who has been impacted by the practice. Will we hear from a provider who has adopted this practice or will we have to be satisfied with the second hand explains from AHB and Admiral who both claim to be messengers of providers each with differing explains ranging from a scam designed to rip off unsuspecting white dudes to providers not wanting to work very hard because of the stereotypical sexual appetites, well endowed anatomy, physically fit Black Men who like to pound away hard and fast for the entire hour and who may become possible stalkers of Black Providers by asking for dates because they are AA?

I can see it all now..."NO AA...(Alcoholics Anonymous) Prefer well endowed, physically fit, hard pounding, insatiable black men who are drunk out of their minds".:lol:

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19 minutes ago, Admiral C said:

I get a chuckle out of good sarcasm and irony myself. However, allow me to ask for a clarification. If John is black, and only sees black providers and only dates black women, then by that standard is John ALSO a racist?

I see what you're attempting to do here by pointing out a perceived hypocrisy but it's not exactly the same or so simple. If you were to ask that John why this was the case and the response was "I just don't do it because non-blacks are untrustworthy, and will rob me, and will do all sorts of horrible things, and are cheap, and demanding!" (I'm only going off what we've all heard at some point in about why the No-AA question) Then yes that John would in fact be a racist piece of shit even if they were black. The color of your skin does not grant you immunity from Merriam-Webster. At the moment you begin to discriminate against others because of their race based solely on preconceived opinion that is not based in reason then you will find yourself squarely at Racist Camp.  

I try not to brand people with the Racist Label so easily because I think it gets tossed around too much, and the ones who rightfully should be labeled are lumped with those who are maybe just ignorant of what it is they're saying or doing. 

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8 minutes ago, JoDoe27 said:

I see what you're attempting to do here by pointing out a perceived hypocrisy but it's not exactly the same or so simple. If you were to ask that John why this was the case and the response was "I just don't do it because non-blacks are untrustworthy, and will rob me, and will do all sorts of horrible things, and are cheap, and demanding!" (I'm only going off what we've all heard at some point in about why the No-AA question) Then yes that John would in fact be a racist piece of shit even if they were black. The color of your skin does not grant you immunity from Merriam-Webster. At the moment you begin to discriminate against others because of their race based solely on preconceived opinion that is not based in reason then you will find yourself squarely at Racist Camp.  

I try not to brand people with the Racist Label so easily because I think it gets tossed around too much, and the ones who rightfully should be labeled are lumped with those who are maybe just ignorant of what it is they're saying or doing. 

Maybe we will agree to disagree here, but to me it is exactly the same thing and very simple. Our hypothetical friend here, John, chooses to see only one race of provider and date one race of woman for some reason. Maybe something you mentioned...maybe he is not attracted to other kinds of women....maybe some other reason. However...you said "if you were to ask John". I don't think John owes anyone an explanation for his choices, and I don't think a lady who advertises "no AA"  ( or 'No anyone, or No whatever activity for that matter)owes any explanations either.  I would not consider either John, or the advertiser as racists. 

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8 minutes ago, Admiral C said:

Maybe we will agree to disagree here, but to me it is exactly the same thing and very simple. Our hypothetical friend here, John, chooses to see only one race of provider and date one race of woman for some reason. Maybe something you mentioned...maybe he is not attracted to other kinds of women....maybe some other reason. However...you said "if you were to ask John". I don't think John owes anyone an explanation for his choices, and I don't think a lady who advertises "no AA"  ( or 'No anyone, or No whatever activity for that matter)owes any explanations either.  I would not consider either John, or the advertiser as racists. 

How about this? the moment your hypothetical John makes his opinions very public then he, as well as those providers, have made themselves subject to whatever scrutiny they receive justified or otherwise. We can agree to disagree and that's ok. But to only get that information from the John you'd have to ask in the first place and then that would likely lead to a followup question. 

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2 hours ago, JoDoe27 said:

How about this? the moment your hypothetical John makes his opinions very public then he, as well as those providers, have made themselves subject to whatever scrutiny they receive justified or otherwise. We can agree to disagree and that's ok. But to only get that information from the John you'd have to ask in the first place and then that would likely lead to a followup question. 

That does not quite work. One reason is that a public posting of "No AA" is not an opinion, it's a preference. Another is that the client does not have to state HIS preference because, unlike the provider, he has the luxury of PICTURES. Because the OP was about black clients we are focusing on race, but maybe we are being bigoted in doing so. Naturally, dangerous, under age, and non paying clients can be rejected...HOWEVER, could'nt the character of providers be questioned who refuse to see EVERYONE else no matter age, gender, race, you name it? A lady posts won't see AA clients can be considered racist. OK. By that standard if WE are going to "judge fairly", we must also consider a provider a sexist,racist, homophobic, age discriminator if she chooses not to see a 90 year old, lesbian, Mongolian female cross dresser.

Edited by Admiral C
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30 minutes ago, Admiral C said:

That does not quite work. One reason is that a public posting of "No AA" is not an opinion, it's a preference. Another is that the client does not have to state HIS preference because, unlike the provider, he has the luxury of PICTURES. Because the OP was about black clients we are focusing on race, but maybe we are being bigoted in doing so. Naturally, dangerous, under age, and non paying clients can be rejected...HOWEVER, could'nt the character of providers be questioned who refuse to see EVERYONE else no matter age, gender, race, you name it? A lady posts won't see AA clients can be considered racist. OK. By that standard if WE are going to "judge fairly", we must also consider a provider a sexist,racist, homophobic, age discriminator if she chooses not to see a 90 year old, lesbian, Mongolian female cross dresser.

I give up. I ask the next time you see a lady and if she posts that she doesn't see black guys to inquire why. You're more likely to get an answer than I am. But from personal experience the answers are never as light as "a simple preference."

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I saw one that doesn't see bald guys with mustaches, EVER, very clear.  I was hoping to ask her why, but I can't see her to ask her.  Could one of you fellas go ask her for me and report back?  Oh yeah, forgot the sarcasm font.

The YLs make a business decision when they create and post an ad.  The words, the pictures, the times available, the rate structure.  That business decision is their own.  Nobody should judge this decision not knowing anything about the story behind it.  

Pretty simple fellas, if a YL puts something in an ad that you don't like, you judge with your $$$ and go somewhere else!  Pretty sure asking why she does or doesn't do this or that is not the way to go.  Pretty sure that has been covered, like a hundred times over.  Sure, I may wonder or speculate, but there is not one answer to this question.  Anecdotes, sure, but largely speculation.

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1 hour ago, Admiral C said:

That does not quite work. One reason is that a public posting of "No AA" is not an opinion, it's a preference. Another is that the client does not have to state HIS preference because, unlike the provider, he has the luxury of PICTURES. Because the OP was about black clients we are focusing on race, but maybe we are being bigoted in doing so. Naturally, dangerous, under age, and non paying clients can be rejected...HOWEVER, could'nt the character of providers be questioned who refuse to see EVERYONE else no matter age, gender, race, you name it? A lady posts won't see AA clients can be considered racist. OK. By that standard if WE are going to "judge fairly", we must also consider a provider a sexist,racist, homophobic, age discriminator if she chooses not to see a 90 year old, lesbian, Mongolian female cross dresser.

I think Joe has got you beat. I normally agree with you but Joe has the experience on this topic.

The problem isn't the posting of "No AA" but what it means and how someone got to that point. Racist is starting to lose meaning as it gets tossed around so carelessly, but like Joe said you can't deny definitions. To deny someone service based on the color of their skin because of preconceived notions is pretty much textbook racism. The biggest difference between your hypothetical John and a provider is one is actually a preference and the other is actual discrimination.

Choosing not to see a 90 year old lesbian from Mongolia is different than posting it. I get you were trying to be comical but it's oddly specific and not likely to happen.

About pictures, there are many black women who are light skinned or mixed race and they don't "look black" in their photos and more than once I have heard from these women about clients who were disappointed because they thought the provider was a white chick or Latina. Dudes feeling deceived over pictures. Black women have to point out that they're black in their ads just to make sure dudes with "preferences" aren't offended.

There is no simple answer as to why some women don't want to see black men, preferences don't just appear out of nowhere they're learned. I don't think anyone really wants to know the answer to these questions because it's really not pretty. Until white clients know what's it like to have to state your race before making an appointment there will always be a disconnect in understanding.

It's a knife in the belly every time a new client calls and asks if I see black men. It shouldn't be something people have to make known before trying to spend their hard earned money. I acknowledge that ladies have their preferences but eventually we have to acknowledge that preferences these have consequences, and while we defend the "No AA" we are overlooking how that makes a community of men feel and perpetuating discrimination.

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Interesting. Many of the African-American individuals I have met are Caucasian. How many of you identify as Euro-American? After the 1st generation, we should all just be American.

i have been declined because I have facial hair. I've been denied a 2nd date because I'm old enough to remind her of her father. The list goes on ...

Edited by Bit Banger
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7 hours ago, AnthointheAM said:

I saw one that doesn't see bald guys with mustaches, EVER, very clear.  I was hoping to ask her why, but I can't see her to ask her.  Could one of you fellas go ask her for me and report back?  Oh yeah, forgot the sarcasm font.

The YLs make a business decision when they create and post an ad.  The words, the pictures, the times available, the rate structure.  That business decision is their own.  Nobody should judge this decision not knowing anything about the story behind it.  

Pretty simple fellas, if a YL puts something in an ad that you don't like, you judge with your $$$ and go somewhere else!  Pretty sure asking why she does or doesn't do this or that is not the way to go.  Pretty sure that has been covered, like a hundred times over.  Sure, I may wonder or speculate, but there is not one answer to this question.  Anecdotes, sure, but largely speculation.

There is exactly one provider that I can think of recently to have said she doesn't do mustaches. It's funny she's been mentioned a few times now so it clearly stood out. For the record I've seen her, and I did ask because it was so out of the blue and oddly specific that I wanted to know. If you truly want the answer then I suggest reaching out to her through email or P411. She's one of the few that'll answer as to why they say certain things. She was genuine in her response as well and further elaborated during out time together. 

The thing that strikes me most about the no black men and really the responses coming from this board is how often it's said "we're a community." Except I don't really feel part of this community especially when racial bias is passed off as a preference. I get it. We all have preferences and are drawn to certain things. But can we stop pretending that FOR SOME not all those preferences don't stem from a hateful place?

You said you wish you could ask that provider why she doesn't see guys with mustaches. Again, I challenge you, and anyone else willing, to ask a provider why they don't see black guys. If no mustaches sticks out to you as being odd then not specifically seeing black guys should really get your attention. And remember, black people make up 3.8% of Colorado's population. So should you ask why they don't see black guys and a negative response is given a follow up should be asked "Well, do white guys not do those exact same things?" And just for numbers sake CO's white population is 82.8%. I'm aware that not everyone in either of those percentages participates in the hobby, but that's an incredible difference in numbers. 

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31 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

Interesting. Many of the African-American individuals I have met are Caucasian. How many of you identify as Euro-American? After the 1st generation, we should all just be American.

i have been declined because I have facial hair. I've been denied a 2nd date because I'm old enough to remind her of her father. The list goes on ...

I identify as an American. And if we were to break it down another level it's Black American. I, as well as my parents, and my grandparents, and for that matter my great grandparents were all born in the US. So yeah, all American over here. 

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7 minutes ago, JoDoe27 said:

I identify as an American. And if we were to break it down another level it's Black American. I, as well as my parents, and my grandparents, and for that matter my great grandparents were all born in the US. So yeah, all American over here. 

Thank you, Joe, for understanding my point. 

I grew up with descriptives like 'black', 'negro', 'white', and 'caucasian', but taught by my parents that we are all strains of the same species, members of the human race. I learned about my heritage (Scots, Swiss, and English - in order of arrival on these shores), but that I was American. 

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1 minute ago, Bit Banger said:

Thank you, Joe, for understanding my point. 

I grew up with descriptives like 'black', 'negro', 'white', and 'caucasian', but taught by my parents that we are all strains of the same species, members of the human race. I learned about my heritage (Scots, Swiss, and English - in order of arrival on these shores), but that I was American. 

You got it, man. 

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I identify as a rabble rouser and pot stirrer, albeit an ignorant one nonetheless. I will stand by my original post in this thread where I said when providers ads get very specific in nature, i.e. " No short, fat, balding, older Irish-Americans with tiny dicks" I will look for another hobby...tennis anyone?

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1 hour ago, JoDoe27 said:

I identify as an American. And if we were to break it down another level it's Black American. I, as well as my parents, and my grandparents, and for that matter my great grandparents were all born in the US. So yeah, all American over here. 

Anyone born in Argentina all the way north to Canada would be American.

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1 hour ago, JoDoe27 said:

The thing that strikes me most about the no black men and really the responses coming from this board is how often it's said "we're a community." Except I don't really feel part of this community especially when racial bias is passed off as a preference. I get it. We all have preferences and are drawn to certain things. But can we stop pretending that FOR SOME not all those preferences don't stem from a hateful place?

You said you wish you could ask that provider why she doesn't see guys with mustaches. Again, I challenge you, and anyone else willing, to ask a provider why they don't see black guys. If no mustaches sticks out to you as being odd then not specifically seeing black guys should really get your attention. And remember, black people make up 3.8% of Colorado's population. So should you ask why they don't see black guys and a negative response is given a follow up should be asked "Well, do white guys not do those exact same things?" And just for numbers sake CO's white population is 82.8%. I'm aware that not everyone in either of those percentages participates in the hobby, but that's an incredible difference in numbers. 

I guess I should have been more clear that the sarcasm font was for the entire paragraph.  Again being the data nerd, I used the search function and in the last 18 months approximately 25 different YLs put "no AA" in their ad out of over 1200 ads.  The 1200 is ads still up, so if a YL renews an ad over and over, it will only count as one.  The number is small so it does stick out, thus this thread and conversation.  The mustache comment might have been only 1 out there so it sticks out more.

My point is that for those 25 YLs, there may be 25 different reasons.  Could some be from a hateful or hurtful stance, yes absolutely.  To deny that would be complete and utter ignorance of reality.  Sabrina is one that has that language in her ad and she was brave enough to state her reason for it.  If others want to say why, that is on them.

All that said, my main point is that it is up to a YL to run her business as she sees fit. Since this business includes offering her beautiful body, ahem, I mean time, then she may set any boundaries she likes.  As the client, we get the luxury of choosing, the luxury of the YLs needing to advertise and share a lot of information about themselves, the luxury of reading what are often crass reviews, and the luxury of remaining largely anonymous while doing so.  I'll say again, vote with your dollars by choosing those who have offered an experience that fits your criteria.  Move on from those that don't.  But don't vilify a YL for making a choice of how she runs her business.  It is her business. 

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1 hour ago, MrBigShot said:

I identify as a rabble rouser and pot stirrer, albeit an ignorant one nonetheless. I will stand by my original post in this thread where I said when providers ads get very specific in nature, i.e. " No short, fat, balding, older Irish-Americans with tiny dicks" I will look for another hobby...tennis anyone?

Is there a number or percentage of ads that would need to contain this language for the change in hobby to happen, or is it if any provider states this?  Besides, doesn't pickle ball sound like an easier transition?  Get it, pickle ball!

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Who exactly has been vilified in this thread, or by this thread? There have been a few explanations in response to the OP's original question and a couple of clients have offered their perspectives from actual experience in having to navigate the hobby around this practice. Then there was a bizarre exchange between myself and Admiral based on what several providers had shared with him via the "No AA's" in advertising, that drifted into whether providers are discriminating against Denver's professional sports athletes based on racial stereotypes.

No one here is saying a provider doesn't have to right to choose her clientele as she sees fit. The implication is that when an entire client base is excluded simply by the color of their skin and no other criteria it's the very definition of racism.

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25 minutes ago, AnthointheAM said:

I guess I should have been more clear that the sarcasm font was for the entire paragraph.  Again being the data nerd, I used the search function and in the last 18 months approximately 25 different YLs put "no AA" in their ad out of over 1200 ads.  The 1200 is ads still up, so if a YL renews an ad over and over, it will only count as one.  The number is small so it does stick out, thus this thread and conversation.  The mustache comment might have been only 1 out there so it sticks out more.

My point is that for those 25 YLs, there may be 25 different reasons.  Could some be from a hateful or hurtful stance, yes absolutely.  To deny that would be complete and utter ignorance of reality.  Sabrina is one that has that language in her ad and she was brave enough to state her reason for it.  If others want to say why, that is on them.

All that said, my main point is that it is up to a YL to run her business as she sees fit. Since this business includes offering her beautiful body, ahem, I mean time, then she may set any boundaries she likes.  As the client, we get the luxury of choosing, the luxury of the YLs needing to advertise and share a lot of information about themselves, the luxury of reading what are often crass reviews, and the luxury of remaining largely anonymous while doing so.  I'll say again, vote with your dollars by choosing those who have offered an experience that fits your criteria.  Move on from those that don't.  But don't vilify a YL for making a choice of how she runs her business.  It is her business. 

While those numbers are true you're not accounting for ones that don't list it at all. I assure you it is a thing and happens way more often than most realize, and the only way to find out is if you contact them and they mention it then, but it's not always in your face. And if you're wondering how it comes about that I'm black in the first place it says so in my P411 so they instantly know. I generally don't lead with "hey, I'm black!" but I do still ask providers if they're ok with that. Less so now than when I first started but nonetheless. 

But like I said earlier, it doesn't bother as me as much anymore and I keep it moving when I see it pop up. I just wonder why it doesn't bother others more. It really is insane to me how many times this thread comes up and suddenly it's about their choice and preference, but "bad business decisions" will do numbers on this board when those "bad decisions" encompass a vast majority of this community. I fully expect each and everyone you here saying it's a choice, their preference, and whatever else to say the exact same thing the next time one of those threads start. 

Edited by JoDoe27
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