The Ever Changing Expectations in the Girlfriend Experience

[Lucy Kitten]

2 hours ago, Admiral C said:

OK...fair enough. While I was only referring to services and NOT comparing ASP's ( which are of COURSE human beings) to meat...my apologies if my example was upsetting. As any PRODUCT would elicit equal offense, especially to those easily offended, allow me to try to stay in the realm of service. A hair salon that offers only two styles because they are easier to care for and best promote healthy hair. Those who want a different style should continue to come? A patient goes to get a nose job, but finds the plastic surgeon has switched to just doing boob jobs......."So what will it be Bill....going with c-cups?"  Now.....allow me to take it to a self personal level.  I too am in a service business. Once upon a time, I offered in home service...."outcall" by comparison.  I no longer do and save drive time and as driving kills way more people than STD's I'm safer. Those outcall clients? Lost most of them. New prospects who want outcall? Lose most of them. HOWEVER...I don't feel like they are trying to manipulate me....endanger me on the roads......not frustrated that they don't decide to drive to me instead. I made a choice...they made a choice...thats business...and that's all it is.

Not easily offended, often analogies made are insensitive and miss the point. There is no service industry that's comparable to this, cervical cancer, throat cancer, HIV, herpes are things that are daily dangers to providers but isn't true for surgeons or steak houses or beauty parlors.

Would you let a surgeon perform surgery without scrubbing in? Would you eat food that was dropped on the floor? I don't think so. The flip side is why are so many clients okay with compromising their own health? There is no bigger thought process for most beyond what a provider is going to do them. Never does it occur to clients that providers have partners they want to keep safe, or that there is no sick pay and chlamydia is going to keep a provider out of work for a while.

Maybe this industry needs a huge shift and maybe it's not really a loss to lose clients that only want uncovered services. I get the business economics lessons but honestly I don't care.  Good health can be so easily lost and sex can be amazing while still being safe and to compromise health for business is just not smart.

I am really just speaking generally nothing is really directed specifically at you, so don't take it personally. But here is my question when you step back and think about a guy that is only willing to see a lady because she overs uncovered services and not at a premium, what does that say about him? Because to me that says that personal satisfaction is more important than the general health of a HUGE community. It tells me that person doesn't see the larger scope of things and that's really what I am getting it. It's not about the individual but the common good for everyone involved.

 

[Lucy Kitten]

6 minutes ago, Admiral C said:

Somewhat off topic but interesting.....UTF is more fun than CBJ...BUT....one provider I knew would get good lube UNDER the cover. While this necessitated keeping ahold to make sure the cover did not slide off, the undercoating of lube improved the CBJ quality to a colossal degree.

And sexpert Dan Savage says we never notice when condoms break because we really don't know the difference. It's not entirely off topic because one of the biggest problems with condoms and safe sex is that men have conditioned themselves to think that condoms are horrible and ruin sex. Which ties back into the whole manipulation/persuasion thing. I can't tell you how many dudes have tried to raw dog it because the claim they've been married and not using condoms for so long that they just can't use them. I call bullshit. Condoms don't desensitize, the brain does that.

TF is not like blowing a guy through his cargo shorts, it's the thinnest piece of material possible while still being effective. Men need to train their brains to enjoy condoms.

[Admiral C]

13 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Not easily offended, often analogies made are insensitive and miss the point. There is no service industry that's comparable to this, cervical cancer, throat cancer, HIV, herpes are things that are daily dangers to providers but isn't true for surgeons or steak houses or beauty parlors.

Would you let a surgeon perform surgery without scrubbing in? Would you eat food that was dropped on the floor? I don't think so. The flip side is why are so many clients okay with compromising their own health? There is no bigger thought process for most beyond what a provider is going to do them. Never does it occur to clients that providers have partners they want to keep safe, or that there is no sick pay and chlamydia is going to keep a provider out of work for a while.

Maybe this industry needs a huge shift and maybe it's not really a loss to lose clients that only want uncovered services. I get the business economics lessons but honestly I don't care.  Good health can be so easily lost and sex can be amazing while still being safe and to compromise health for business is just not smart.

I am really just speaking generally nothing is really directed specifically at you, so don't take it personally. But here is my question when you step back and think about a guy that is only willing to see a lady because she overs uncovered services and not at a premium, what does that say about him? Because to me that says that personal satisfaction is more important than the general health of a HUGE community. It tells me that person doesn't see the larger scope of things and that's really what I am getting it. It's not about the individual but the common good for everyone involved.

 

I appreciate that and have not taken any comments personally. I hope you don't see mine as personal either as that is certainly not the intent. I think some providers offer certain services but at a higher rate...presumably a risk to cost issue. Guys objecting to that or threatening bad reviews over the rate, or over another provider NOT doing the same is way out of line. There are many reasons why some are CMT...FBSM....Escort...Domme...etc, and I'm sure risk is big one. Clients select on want and so we have reviews. As for what you said about assessing a guy as putting personal satisfaction ahead of the general health of a huge community...you kinda have a point. However, personal satisfaction is pretty much 100% of what the basis of this business IS, so that's not too surprising. In any event, I appreciate you not "killing the messenger". I suspect there's some guys reading this thinking "I certainly only book with certain types of providers, but I'm sure as hell not posting about it!"

[Admiral C]

1 hour ago, Lucy Kitten said:

And sexpert Dan Savage says we never notice when condoms break because we really don't know the difference. It's not entirely off topic because one of the biggest problems with condoms and safe sex is that men have conditioned themselves to think that condoms are horrible and ruin sex. Which ties back into the whole manipulation/persuasion thing. I can't tell you how many dudes have tried to raw dog it because the claim they've been married and not using condoms for so long that they just can't use them. I call bullshit. Condoms don't desensitize, the brain does that.

TF is not like blowing a guy through his cargo shorts, it's the thinnest piece of material possible while still being effective. Men need to train their brains to enjoy condoms.

I would have to call bullshit on Dan Savage. We guys DO feel it when we bust through a condom and quite easily also. Again, I will be the messenger who risks getting shot, but most guys know damned well they busted the cover but keep quite and CLAIM they did not know the difference. We do. Now please pardon me while I duck.

[daaacz]

5 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

...a steak can't give you an STD.

 

There's a GMO joke in there somewhere.

[daaacz]

6 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Unfortunately not everyone thinks like you. Too many believe that GFE means specific services and that anything else is negative. I have said many of the same things here on this board and the response is to trot out STI stats and the conversation goes nowhere. Unsafe sex should be the exception and not the rule and those that choose to do so need to charge more for it and stop using GFE or UTF as bargaining tools for more clients.

It's an ugly position providers find themselves in, I know I offer those services but I also know that I would lose a lot of my local client base if I changed those offerings. We're not really in a place to change things as providers unless we're all on the same page so the best we can do is appeal to clients and hope to change their minds.

Safe sex should be mandatory, it shouldn't even be a conversation but it is and it sucks. There was another great blog entry from a provider who recently gave up the independent escort life to work in a a legal brothel. One of her reasons was the safe sex and the lack of argument about it in a controlled legal environment.

Personally I think providers need to tighten up the rules about safety and clients need to stop with the manipulation/persuasion. I'd rather see us all play safe before a herpes outbreak that forces us to.

We can definitely thank sites like TER for that. Their new rules are especially manipulative. At first, it kind of felt like it would give a good indication of services. A score of X must include services A-D, but not G. But it doesn't work that way at all.  It's still just a number and they allow reviewers to break their rules quite often. If I have a great time and walk out feeling like a rock star, I should be able to give the highest score regardless of which items were checked off of the list.

This is just another reason that criminalizing the business is stupid. With no support from the authorities, y'all have to make up the rules. If you can't all get together to agree, it's just a mess that allows the horny idiots (like me ) to decide.

[Bit Banger]

1 hour ago, daaacz said:

We can definitely thank sites like TER for that. ...

 

Which is one of the reasons I don't participate in TER.

To the OP:  For me, GFE has nothing to do with services and everything to do with connection between the participants. One of the best GFE sessions I ever had was brunch in a public restaurant.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

Which is one of the reasons I don't participate in TER.

To the OP:  For me, GFE has nothing to do with services and everything to do with connection between the participants. One of the best GFE sessions I ever had was brunch in a public restaurant.

Unless that brunch had breasts and came with a French Lesson, our ideas of GFE are completely different

[Bit Banger]

1 hour ago, MrBigShot said:

Unless that brunch had breasts and came with a French Lesson, our ideas of GFE are completely different

Breasts? Yes. One of our now retired sweethearts. Trust me, there were other more private encounters. 

[pfunk]

5 hours ago, Admiral C said:

I would have to call bullshit on Dan Savage. We guys DO feel it when we bust through a condom and quite easily also. Again, I will be the messenger who risks getting shot, but most guys know damned well they busted the cover but keep quite and CLAIM they did not know the difference. We do. Now please pardon me while I duck.

I have to agree with this. I have had condoms break, and I knew it immediately, every time. Getting a CBJ feels good, but, to me, not as good as UTF. I've never worn a condom with a girlfriend, unless she wasn't on the pill. I do not require any of these BB services, from a provider. If all providers started practicing safety first, I know I would visit less. I wouldn't berate the women, or whine about it. I would simply see ONLY those I REALLY liked. If all providers stopped kissing, I would probably find another hobby. 

I would never say anyone HAS to do anything, whether it's the provider, or the client. However, we all get to choose what we do with our time. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by pfunk

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Admiral C said:

Somewhat off topic but interesting.....UTF is more fun than CBJ...BUT....one provider I knew would get good lube UNDER the cover. While this necessitated keeping ahold to make sure the cover did not slide off, the undercoating of lube improved the CBJ quality to a colossal degree.

This sounds like a fun new thing to try for me...  thanks for the tip.. (no pun intended)

[gr8owl]

I have not spent time for the first time with a lady in years where intimacy was expected without saying "I do not want you to do anything you are not comfortable with, and I do want you to tell me if I try or ask for anything that makes you uncomfortable." It is meant honestly.  She as an adult should speak up.

Everyone needs to find the level of risk vs. reward they are comfortable with.  If maximum reward and minimum risk coincided there would never be a conversation along these lines.  I know where my comfort zone is (and frankly it varies a little from partner to partner) but I am not going to tell anyone where their comfort zone should be.

That said, to try to claim that the physical sensations are just as good covered as not or to say the difference is all in my head, is ..... well sorry .... it is bullshit.  And to imply that DATY through dental dam or female condom is remotely the same with most of the texture and smell gone and all of the taste?? Yeah, sure it is.  Doubt it feels that great to lady either.  Whatever anyone decides about their comfort zone should be based upon the most and best facts they can gather - but not made up "facts' that justify their actions.

And lastly, if your risk level is fine at say the bbbj and DATY level then get your ass tested regularly. The level of risk I choose for my health (catching something) is my business, but i will not engage in those activities unless I know via regular tests that I am not going to give anything to a partner.  Hope that makes sense.  If not hit yourself in head with hammer repeatedly until it does.   Wait, that was another thread. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, gr8owl said:

I have not spent time for the first time with a lady in years where intimacy was expected without saying "I do not want you to do anything you are not comfortable with, and I do want you to tell me if I try or ask for anything that makes you uncomfortable." It is meant honestly.  She as an adult should speak up.

I try to behave the same way about respecting a partners limits or comfort zones.  But I think many clients don't, and feel either entitled or empowered to use money and this relatively new Yelp type pressure to coax a woman out of her true comfort or safety zone.  This is my first foray into the internet reviewed SW/SP community, but in e forums I get the vibe that the fear a less than favorable review online from a disgruntled client can have on a providers bottom line might indeed keep her from speaking up.  Maybe I'm new to accessing this hobby via the internet and online networking.  I just see that the reviews sometimes crate so much pressure on some of the providers and that the competition is very different in this verification/ references/ reviews type of "community"

that my long version of saying " what if she fears that speaking up as an adult works against her within this system?"

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Unclehazard91 said:

I try to behave the same way about respecting a partners limits or comfort zones.  But I think many clients don't, and feel either entitled or empowered to use money and this relatively new Yelp type pressure to coax a woman out of her true comfort or safety zone.  This is my first foray into the internet reviewed SW/SP community, but in e forums I get the vibe that the fear a less than favorable review online from a disgruntled client can have on a providers bottom line might indeed keep her from speaking up.  Maybe I'm new to accessing this hobby via the internet and online networking.  I just see that the reviews sometimes crate so much pressure on some of the providers and that the competition is very different in this verification/ references/ reviews type of "community"

that my long version of saying " what if she fears that speaking up as an adult works against her within this system?"

"Coerce", not "coax".  Sorry.  I'm sort of disabled and sometimes the spell check has its way with me....

[Juanmotai]

When I leave a young ladies incall and I have that feeling of "WOW I CANT WAIT TO SEE HER AGAIN" that's the girl friend experience to me. Regardless of what activities took place, because it's different with every lady. 

[jj254-1]

21 hours ago, pfunk said:

I have to agree with this. I have had condoms break, and I knew it immediately, every time. Getting a CBJ feels good, but, to me, not as good as UTF. I've never worn a condom with a girlfriend, unless she wasn't on the pill. I do not require any of these BB services, from a provider. If all providers started practicing safety first, I know I would visit less. I wouldn't berate the women, or whine about it. I would simply see ONLY those I REALLY liked. If all providers stopped kissing, I would probably find another hobby. 

I would never say anyone HAS to do anything, whether it's the provider, or the client. However, we all get to choose what we do with our time. 

I agree. 100%. Condoms do desensitize a bit. Easy fix with extra lube inside. I have preferences. I'm gonna visit ladies who match those. Don't want to spend time trying to 'talk a girl' into it. No fun unless everyone has fun. IMO. I strongly support consenting adults doing what they like with each other. It's not a closed market. Providers have other career options. Dudes have other options for affection. Both options may require some standards being adjusted. 

[AnthointheAM]

My first introduction to this fun hobby was down under where it is all legal.  Covered everything is the norm as far as I can tell from my limited experience.  So is upselling for a "GFE" experience which might include some light kissing.  It was a very different experience there, less personal in all respects.  I don't know if being there longer one might find a better connection with repeated visits to the same YL.  It kind of makes me wonder if the nature of the business here is a catalyst for closer connections and the uncertainty might heighten the experience.  

[AnthointheAM]

And to clarify, I don't think the connection issue has anything to do with covered everything or just covered full service.  I call BS on all the dudes saying they would hobby less if CBJ became the norm.  It seems there are some YLs doing quite fine around here that have set that as their norm.  I believe there are more important variables in a good experience, or if you want to call it a GFE, than the existence of a thin cover or not.  If there is a connection and I am enjoying the passion and experience with a YL, I am not going to think twice about whether I am covered or not.  If she is more comfortable with it covered, she will be more into it than if she feels the need to meet some stupid expectation, and we will both have a better time!

[Bit Banger]

Safety is great, but there are limits. All this talk of covered activities reminds me of the happy ending to a massage I got years ago. The European gal put on a pair of kitchen gloves, you know the kind made by RubberMaid, and used a whole bottle of lotion. UGH!!  

Needless to say, I never returned to that establishment!

[AnthointheAM]

I have this vision of a girl named Helga protecting her hands for a shot put competition. Probably safer to stay away since she might pull it right off!

[Bit Banger]

1 minute ago, AnthointheAM said:

I have this vision of a girl named Helga protecting her hands for a shot put competition. Probably safer to stay away since she might pull it right off!

Your vision is closer to the truth than I'd like to admit😵

[2Big]

Cry me a river. 

You don't wanna suck off some dude's meat stick?

Shoulda gotten an education instead of "gettin' jiggy" with LeRoy, who is now serving 20 to life, coz he ran a drug operation across state lines. 

 

 

[Guest]

Nothing like drunk dialing TOB at 11am....

[TS Madison Proudmoore]

4 hours ago, 2Big said:

Shoulda gotten an education instead of "gettin' jiggy" with LeRoy, who is now serving 20 to life, coz he ran a drug operation across state lines. 

 

 

Managing other software engineers at 24 almost homeless at 25. Thanks education and my B.S at CU I did in 3 years?

[Lucy Kitten]

On 3/7/2017 at 3:02 PM, Admiral C said:

I would have to call bullshit on Dan Savage. We guys DO feel it when we bust through a condom and quite easily also. Again, I will be the messenger who risks getting shot, but most guys know damned well they busted the cover but keep quite and CLAIM they did not know the difference. We do. Now please pardon me while I duck.

You see how this is problematic? If dudes lie about being safe then how do we really avoid risk?

[Wendy Whitney]

6 hours ago, 2Big said:

Cry me a river. 

You don't wanna suck off some dude's meat stick?

Shoulda gotten an education instead of "gettin' jiggy" with LeRoy, who is now serving 20 to life, coz he ran a drug operation across state lines. 

 

 

Total Asshat comment. Low for even you :-(

[jj254-1]

39 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

You see how this is problematic? If dudes lie about being safe then how do we really avoid risk?

You always got choices. Make the ones that are right for you. 

[Lucy Kitten]

1 hour ago, jj254 said:

You always got choices. Make the ones that are right for you. 

No you don't have choices if your partner is lying to you. So always is incorrect. My right choice is contingent on my partner being honest, I can't plan around lies.

[jj254-1]

4 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

No you don't have choices if your partner is lying to you. So always is incorrect. My right choice is contingent on my partner being honest, I can't plan around lies.

You choose first to have a partner, and next which partner, followed by what you do with that partner. You always have options. 

[Lucy Kitten]

8 hours ago, jj254 said:

You choose first to have a partner, and next which partner, followed by what you do with that partner. You always have options. 

You're missing the point.  No you don't always have options, if an asshole dude fucks me and the condom breaks and he lies about it I don't have a choice.
Always having options is what dudes say who give ladies herpes and say you should have chosen better. You don't always have a choice and again yes I choose my partners but it's up to my partner to be honest. If they lie to me it's not my bad choice it's theirs.

My initial point was directed at Admiral C and dudes lying about broken condoms, that really doesn't have much to do with me making better choices. I can't make good choices when dudes lie about shit like that. And men are the ones that complain women trap them with pregnancy.