Stop or I will shoot

[Guest]

One more thing.  It is possible to debate this topic without insults.  And its Sunday morning, so with Apologies to King Solomon I give you a paraphrased version of Proverbs 25:24.....

 

"It is better to live on a corner of the roof than to share a thread with a contentious woman."

[Bit Banger]

I find the MLK quote quite relevant. If for no other reason than to remind the BLM protesters of the differences in their styles. When you visit Birmingham or Montgomery, AL, it is evident that in the 60's the violence was often initiated by whites suppressing black gatherings. Today the violence seems to spring from w/in the black mobs. 

Racism will ALWAYS be with us as the ingrained fear of 'the other', who present a threat to us and our 'tribe'. Today it seems that the strongest public expressions of racism are displayed by the likes of Rev. Sharpton & Pres. Obama, not the Grand Dragons of the Klan or Southern governors.

i also suspect that the current storm has been engineered to distract us from the abysmal problems created by our socialist regime promising equality of outcome. Just as a rising tide lifts all boats, a leveling grinds down the peaks of success.

[Lucy Kitten]

1 hour ago, MAG said:

I noticed you didn't respond to my challenge to debate respectfully.  You could take a lesson from Bit.  Something to think about, while you're stewing in bitterness over the plight of BLM.

There is nothing disrespectful about my reply but it speaks volumes that you don't think MLK is relevant in a time of racial tension. Are you implying that we should only use fresh quotes? Or that we shouldn't make obvious parallels? Did you bother to read it? Because I am certain that there are a few points on which you could actually agree.

You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil."

That seems eerily relevant.

 

[MAG]

There isn't nearly as much racial tension as you think there is.  The notion of "racial tension" is a BLM creation.  Nobody will ever convince me there is racial tension in a country that has a two-term black president.  Most of the racial tension in this country comes from its "victims".

Once again, I challenge you not to dodge my question:  where have you spoken respectfully on a topic?  I'm sure there are some recent quotes about anger and its relationship to lack of intelligence or emotional maturity. 

[Lucy Kitten]

1 minute ago, Bit Banger said:

I find the MLK quote quite relevant. If for no other reason than to remind the BLM protesters of the differences in their styles. When you visit Birmingham or Montgomery, AL, it is evident that in the 60's the violence was often initiated by whites suppressing black gatherings. Today the violence seems to spring from w/in the black mobs. 

Racism will ALWAYS be with us as the ingrained fear of 'the other', who present a threat to us and our 'tribe'. Today it seems that the strongest public expressions of racism are displayed by the likes of Rev. Sharpton & Pres. Obama, not the Grand Dragons of the Klan or Southern governors.

i also suspect that the current storm has been engineered to distract us from the abysmal problems created by our socialist regime promising equality of outcome. Just as a rising tide lifts all boats, a leveling grinds down the peaks of success.

Why can't the lesson go both ways? Why can't the quote serve as a reminder to the white folk that there are absolutely peaceful protesters even within BLM? And when the American population flips their lid over peaceful, powerful, legal protest of kneeling for the national anthem that quote has even bigger meaning. Even peaceful protest is denied. People choose to only see the ugly side of BLM and choose to associate any negative behavior from black people with the movement. Ignoring peaceful protests left and right. People are trying in every way they can to spread their message but all their being told is your doing it wrong. Attacking the approach is an easy way to ignore the actual problems underneath it all. The evidence piles up in their favor but still BLM activists see no results. Just constant attacks on their delivery methods.

Ferguson incited a riot on purpose. They made the people of the city wait to hear the decision on whether or not charges would be filed. They waited until the business day was over giving businesses time to board up their windows for the impending riots. They waited until there would be a large amount of people able to assemble and then they delivered the blow. Darren Wilson wasn't going to face any charges. The people of Ferguson could have chosen not to riot but there is no denying that there wasn't outside influence. Ferguson officials wanted to shift the focus and the blame. I don't think that the inciting of riots has changed much since the 60s.

[Lucy Kitten]

8 minutes ago, MAG said:

There isn't nearly as much racial tension as you think there is.  The notion of "racial tension" is a BLM creation.  Nobody will ever convince me there is racial tension in a country that has a two-term black president.  Most of the racial tension in this country comes from its "victims".

Once again, I challenge you not to dodge my question:  where have you spoken respectfully on a topic?  I'm sure there are some recent quotes about anger and its relationship to lack of intelligence or emotional maturity. 

I am not dodging. You made a false accusation and it's not up to me to prove it. You're confusing disagreeing with disrespect which is laughable coming from one the most disrespectful characters on this board. Disrespectful would be personal attacks, like telling someone to get therapy. So maybe show me actual examples of my disrespect. And all my posts isn't an answer. Burden of proof remember? If Lucy is disrespectful prove it.

So in 2008 when Obama was elected is the date that racism ended for you? Centuries of systematic oppression just ended? Ghettos magically transformed into cute suburbs with good schools? Confederate flags were all pulled and we turned into a nation of acceptance and all joined hands and sang Kumbaya?

BLM didn't create the tension. They created discomfort with the truth. The tension is a result of people wanting to deny truths and deny minorities which is a long standing American tradition.

[MAG]

3 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

I am not dodging. You made a false accusation and it's not up to me to prove it. You're confusing disagreeing with disrespect which is laughable coming from one the most disrespectful characters on this board. Disrespectful would be personal attacks, like telling someone to get therapy. So maybe show me actual examples of my disrespect. And all my posts isn't an answer. Burden of proof remember? If Lucy is disrespectful prove it.

So in 2008 when Obama was elected is the date that racism ended for you? Centuries of systematic oppression just ended? Ghettos magically transformed into cute suburbs with good schools? Confederate flags were all pulled and we turned into a nation of acceptance and all joined hands and sang Kumbaya?

BLM didn't create the tension. They created discomfort with the truth. The tension is a result of people wanting to deny truths and deny minorities which is a long standing American tradition.

There you go again, twisting others' arguments.  That in itself is disrespectful.

I never said racism ended with Obama.  But let's be honest:  the country has come a LOOONG way wince MLK's time.  Lynchings, church bombs, cross burnings, bus seats, white-only restaurants, restrooms, drinking fountains etc -- those things are gone.  What still exists:  rampant black-on-black crime, and a media that cries foul when a black man gets shot after being told a dozen times to put the gun down, but turns a comparatively deaf ear when 5 police officers are murdered.

Ghettos?  That's the best you can do?  Ghettos will always exist, and by the way -- they are not all black.  Poverty and "under privilege" are unfortunate facts of life and always will be, despite what the liberals want you to hope for.  There are numerous stories about people who clawed their way out of poverty by -- you guessed it, getting educated and working hard.  Those opportunities are available to ALL people.  In fact, affirmative action has ensured in some cases that they are disproportionately available to blacks.

As Bit said, there are some brutal cops, but there is NOT systemic racial brutality.  There IS systemic racial self-victimization, and IMO that is the primary source of "racial tension" in this country.

 

[Bit Banger]

Gross that this is what you think of humans but not surprising. So our judicial system means nothing? Crimes that were not punishable by death now are just because it makes us feel better? You spit on the Constitution and our entire system. Selling cigarettes on the street requires lethal force? Playing with toy guns deserves lethal force? We can go through the whole list of "criminals" that posed ZERO risk and still lost their lives to lethal force. Why was James Holmes taken alive?...

You have misinterpreted my reference to "lawlessness and anarchy."  The alternative to our police enforcing the law, demanding compliance with their lawful orders, is for them(LE) to walk away, to turn their backs on criminal activity, and to not bring it to the attention of the judicial system. This is the anarchy to which I referred. Who gets to decide what laws to enforce? If it's OKay to sell black market tobacco on the streets, how about other drugs? If it's OKay to break a store window, how about setting the place on fire? There is a reason for "broken window policing"; it fosters compliance with other laws and discourages judicial interpretation by civilians.

The death penalty is not being imposed for the petty crimes of selling black market cigarettes, etc., but rather for stupidity, for escalating a situation by failing to comply with LE performing the duty WE asked of them - enforce the laws our government has established for all to follow. 

The death penalty is also being imposed when there is a perceived threat to LE. In the video of the recent NC shooting it is very evident that at least one police officer believed that Scott had a weapon, and thus posed a threat to his life. In the Tulsa incident, the police officer believed her life was in danger. Look at today's news coverage and ask yourself, "Why do the police have a hair trigger?"  Would you care to be a police officer in today's climate?

James Holmes was captured w/o incident because he was in a postition of surrender when police arrived on the scene. As I recall considerable violence was involved in the capture of the CoSprings shooter, with the potential for things to go very wrong. Smart criminals tend to surrender when faced with deadly force.

If you have a suggestion for how to enforce the law, to garner compliance with the lawful orders of those we have asked to enforce our laws, without the use of deadly force and collateral damage, I'm all ears.

One suggestion is a return to the era of the beat cop, which would require an astronomical increase in the size of the police force. Get officers out of their cars and back on the streets where they form personal relationships with the neighborhood. But that's not feasible with urban sprawl and the population explosion.

As for my spitting in the Constitution, I took an oath to defend it from all enemies, foreign and domestic, long before you were born. Have you taken that oath?

[SultryKitten]

12 hours ago, Mr.Pink said:

chris rock has some sage advice.

^This!!!

+1000

Edited September 25, 2016 by SultryKitten

[Bit Banger]

2 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Gross that this is what you think of humans but not surprising. ...

 You spit on the Constitution and our entire system. ...

These kinds of conversations are too big to have here.

Is this what passes for intellectual discourse these days?  No wonder students feel the need for "safe zones".

[Lucy Kitten]

2 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Is this what passes for intellectual discourse these days?  No wonder students feel the need for "safe zones".

Lol. You need a safe zone? Shall we go through all the repulsive ane insulting things you say around here?

Nevermind the actual intelligence  you were countered with. It is gross that you think lethal force is the only option. Shows how narrow minded you really are. You disregard an entire  judicial  system by promoting cops to judge jury and executioner. Never mind due process so you can easily disrespectful  to an entire community but can't take it that I think your opinion is gross. Get over yourself and stop using me to deflect from your horseshit statements. 

This thread is hilarious.  A couple of the most condescending and insulting posters trying to teach me manners. 

Why don't  you go start another thread about how Lucy just doesn't  understand. 

[Mr.Pink]

4 hours ago, MAG said:

 There IS systemic racial self-victimization, and IMO that is the primary source of "racial tension" in this country.

 

[Bit Banger]

24 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Lol. You need a safe zone? Shall we go through all the repulsive ane insulting things you say around here?

... It is gross that you think lethal force is the only option. Shows how narrow minded you really are. ...

... trying to teach me manners. 

...

Really? Is that the best you can do?  Me? Need a safe place from the likes of you? Pfffft!

I notice that you didn't offer any alternative to 'deadly force or anarchy'. At what point does disobedience of the law become sufficiently aggregious to compel compliance? What tools would you suggest for obtaining that compliance?

I do not believe that LEOs should be judge & jury.  I do, however, believe that they have the right to defend themselves from perceived threats and that they should have the expectation, on our behalf, of courtesy and obedience from those with whom they interact.

As for teaching you manners, you must think I'm Don Quixote. My cat is more polite than you. 

[Bit Banger]

For the record I respect the right of sports figures to peacefully protest what they perceive as injustice & racism. I may disagree with their views, but they have every right to express their opinions. At the same time, team owners & coachs have the right to demand certain behaviors when in uniform or on the playing field. That does not obstruct the players right to call a press conference or join a protest movement on their own time. 

BTW, taking a knee during the anthem is one of the more peaceful, respectful forms of protest I've ever seen. Much better than just sitting on the bench. 

[MAG]

8 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

You spit on the Constitution and our entire system.

The Constitution was written and signed by slave owners.

[MAG]

2 hours ago, Mr.Pink said:

Bravo.

[Laci French]

Just wanted to wade through the pissing match to share my thoughts...

I was raised to respect authority and it really is that simple. When a police officer gives you commands just obey. If you feel the need to fight the charges do it in court. 

Now back to the pissing match...this old hag just wanted to share my thoughts.😉

[boink36]

1 hour ago, Laci French-2940 said:

Just wanted to wade through the pissing match to share my thoughts...

I was raised to respect authority and it really is that simple. When a police officer gives you commands just obey. If you feel the need to fight the charges do it in court. 

Now back to the pissing match...this old hag just wanted to share my thoughts.😉

Your avatar makes me want to pick up a piercing gun and take aim! 

[Lucy Kitten]

 

[Lucy Kitten]

5 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Really? Is that the best you can do?  Me? Need a safe place from the likes of you? Pfffft!

I notice that you didn't offer any alternative to 'deadly force or anarchy'. At what point does disobedience of the law become sufficiently aggregious to compel compliance? What tools would you suggest for obtaining that compliance?

I do not believe that LEOs should be judge & jury.  I do, however, believe that they have the right to defend themselves from perceived threats and that they should have the expectation, on our behalf, of courtesy and obedience from those with whom they interact.

As for teaching you manners, you must think I'm Don Quixote. My cat is more polite than you. 

Wait just so we're clear this is coming from the guy who likes to compare women to inanimate objects and every business he can think of? The guy who decided to write a thread about my self worth because I was firm in telling you that negotiating is for chumps. From the man that said it would be better to be murdered than outed. Just so we're clear on the whole respect thing.

You must be the one who needs a safe space. You're the one who brought it up. You may not like what I have to say but let's not get confused about who is really disrespectful. So far the two of you trying to teach me respect have attacked me on a personal level, c'mon at the very least try and practice what you preach.

Funny that you ignore an actual thoughtful and intelligent comment only to pick out the part where I said your opinion was gross. You sling shit constantly but never really bother to engage. That you can research because that is like the 57th time I have said the exact same thing to you. Go back and read why and when I was called rude. I was called rude because I said it was tasteless to bring up a <snip> killed by gang violence in a thread where the question was about police shootings. You really are going to back the notoriously rude Av8r?

You can't support lethal force and still respect due process at the same time. None of the high profile killings by cops in the past two years have been suspects who committed capital crimes. You can't really believe that, resisting or not, minor offenses deserve the death penalty. Cops should be trained to subdue but they're not, if you  read the links I posted it would offer you some insight. Police officers are bred to be brutal, they're trained to profile and not just for race.

We're an unfairly targeted group, clients and providers. We know this, we complain about this. We know that certain groups within our groups are targets which is why everyone is so mum on AMPs. We know that cops don't always play by the rules, the incident in Glendale where officers engaged before making arrests, the stupid sting where they impounded all the cars of the guys who stopped for an undercover female cop who waved them down. Why is it a stretch of the imagination to believe that police abuse their power all the time and that certain populations are targeted? Philando Castile was pulled over because his "wide nose" resembled that of a robbery suspect, he was profiled and he died. Bryce Masters will spend the rest of his life recovering and hoping to heal his brain because of a poorly trained police officer.

The answer is not simple. The answer is not for people to just stop resisting, that answer only results in more deaths because people will never stop resisting arrest.To simplify and say just don't resist ignores the issues and real victims. If cops are so concerned about the safety of things maybe they should up their game. They've already got bullet proof vests, so why not have them in full riot gear the whole time? Reduce their chances of being hurt and more people can stay alive. There are so many options before lethal force and to not consider them and tell people just to do as their told sweeps the issue under the rug.

The dislike for BLM is no different than the dislike for MLK in the 50s and 60s. The dislike people used to have Muhammad Ali and Malcom X. History is repeating itself and people need to fall on the right side of history. No one except the lowest of the low would ever say anything shitty about Rosa Parks. But if there was internet in 1955 you can sure bet that there would be people talking about how she needs to just follow the rules and do as she's told. When you dismiss BLM how are you certain that you're not also dismissing a future Rosa Parks? BLM will go down in the history books and it certainly won't be negative.

 

 

[Laci French]

1 hour ago, boink36 said:

Your avatar makes me want to pick up a piercing gun and take aim! 

How good of a shot are ya?

[Danielle Rae]

James Holmes was captured w/o incident because he was in a postition of surrender when police arrived on the scene heavily drugged and placed there.  

Edited September 26, 2016 by Danielle Rae
typo

[MAG]

Lucy is trying to compare BLM to MLK -- LMAO

Edited September 26, 2016 by MAG

[Wendy Whitney]

This thread is a perfect example of why people should not discuss religion or politics.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Wendy Whitney said:

This thread is a perfect example of why people should not discuss religion or politics.

Here, here! The name calling is absurd. I'd rather watch the debates tonight. Seriously, mellow the fuck out! Agree to disagree and move on. Seriously,  I need a shower after reading this thread.

[Phil-anderer]

On 9/25/2016 at 7:45 AM, MAG said:

How is a 53+ year old quote relevant today?

VERY relevant.

[Johnboy#1]

48 minutes ago, Wendy Whitney said:

This thread is a perfect example of why people should not discuss religion or politics.

I was raised to never discuss religion, politics or wages.

(Fie upon you rate threads)

Signature

[jj254-1]

On 9/25/2016 at 7:06 PM, Laci French-2940 said:

Just wanted to wade through the pissing match to share my thoughts...

I was raised to respect authority and it really is that simple. When a police officer gives you commands just obey. If you feel the need to fight the charges do it in court. 

Now back to the pissing match...this old hag just wanted to share my thoughts.😉

Not that simple. This thing we share is a no-no according to authorities. Do we deserve the death penalty for it? 

It's a complex problem. Ain't no simple solution. The confluence of factors feeding the problem need addressed. 5 second sound bytes won't fix it. 

[Bit Banger]

5 hours ago, jj254 said:

Not that simple. This thing we share is a no-no according to authorities. Do we deserve the death penalty for it? 

...

No.. If you behave during a sting, you'll get that day in court. But if you get belligerent and start waving a gun around your next stop is likely the morgue (like that guy in Greeley a few years ago).

Yes, it is a complex problem involving far more than just LE.  For starters a host of economic & education problems need to be addressed too. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Bit Banger

[QuakerOatZ]

Nah just an oversensitiveness by the media.  Historically, shooting are well below levels of the 90's.  Not to at all trivialize these shootings at all but there is a bigger agenda at play.  I in general have the full support of the police in general, however, one shooting burns me up as this one that definitely deserves all the attention but instead is a mostly overlooked and ignored travesty:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-swat-team-defends-shooting-iraq-marine-veteran/story?id=13640112

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting