The U.S. Department of Homeland Security

[GinaXXX]

1 hour ago, gr8owl said:

Perhaps if members of this board and others and of various sex worker groups and advocacy groups would not be so quick to defend the actual, real, despicable trafficking that does occur the sometimes clueless LE agencies and the almost always clueless general public would not be so inclined to lump adult, voluntary, harmless activity together with the other.  Quit making excuses.

I'm quite certain that no one is defending actual trafficking that does occur in this industry. However, when you are talking about native-born Independent providers, who are well above the age of majority, the percentage of actual trafficking instances are extremely small.

Personally, I'm pissed off to no end that adult women, having made a choice based on their own free will, are being labeled "victims" and legally persecuted if they don't fly the banner of the paternalist and religious forces that wish to control women and their sexual choices. This "human trafficking" band wagon parades (usually young immigrant) women out as though they are morons incapable of making a decision on their own, and the general public eats it up like it's dinner. If they are truly victims, then that should be dealt with accordingly, but let's not forget just how good that T-visa sounds to these women too. They do have a brain, after all.

Of course there are some awful things that go on in this industry. There are laws that cover assault, kidnapping, larceny, hostage taking, sexual abuse, pimping, etc. and they should most certainly be put into play when there are abuses occurring. However, to label ALL (or most) providers as victims of human trafficking is ridiculous, and to arrest and prosecute them unless they march to that drum, even more so.

The reality is that the vast majority of providers targeted and affected by this ongoing crusade are NOT victims of human trafficking, even if some of them use that story as a tactic to get out of whatever trouble they might find themselves when caught up in a sting. I've been there myself, and lied my way out of more than one sticky situation by playing the sweet little Miss Innocent. The waters are very muddy.

I would suggest that if our community were able to come out from the shadows legally, more of us would be willing to report situations where we suspect abuses are going on. And while the clients might be so depraved that they would have sex with anyone who seems to be a willing participant, it's unlikely another provider would overlook a similar situation IF she could feel confident that she wouldn't find herself in hot water for shining a light on herself by sharing what she knows.

All people in this industry, regardless of their circumstance, deserves to be safe and respected. Providers can be "rescued" from situations if need be, without criminalizing the activities of those who do not need rescuing.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by GinaXXX

[gr8owl]

11 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

Sorry to see you go.  Happy trails.

What?  Well based on how passionate you are about trafficking, one can only surmise that you will be forsaking all commercial sex.

Not going anywhere.  Big fan of commercial sex among consenting adults.  Believe wholeheartedly it should be 100 percent legal and in the open.  I am as pissed as anyone that the various groups and government agencies insist on trying to portray all "commercial sex" as trafficking let alone to DEFINE it that way in codes or laws.  And my political leanings are well into the libertarian bent as well - just not into anarchy, another discussion.  Clear enough??

What I am passionate about is the actual cases of women, especially underage, that are victims of force, threat and coercion into doing things they do not want to do and are by the same means forced to continue.  It does no good to the discussion of legalizing, decriminalizing whatever word you prefer to pretend like those things do not happen and then argue that your precious taxes should not be so wasted.  Of course they should not be wasted on busting adult consensual activities.  But from all indications the King County busts probably fit into the category of activities that SHOULD be busted and a pimp circle that SHOULD be broken up.  If most of the activities and participants on the board that was taken down were of the consensual adult variety then it is truly sad it got pulled down as a consequence of its association.

Perhaps the most important take away - which I have posted about before, just a bit more subtly - participants on this board and in this "community" should be somewhat self policing and aware of reality and try their best NOT to be hand in hand with the dark side of the industry.  For instance - how many 411's are there here over BP ads that are for traveling 'women", obviously "promoted" by some form of "agent" and list their age as 18?? And yet the questions are usually geared toward a. not LE and b. will I have a good time ?  When the question should be what the hell am I contributing to if I frequent this one?

If you want to engage in an intelligent discussion about theses points i am all in.  But flying off the rails with straw man arguments, farewell speeches and misrepresentations of what you think i mean and believe does not serve the discussion very well.

[gr8owl]

39 minutes ago, GinaXXX said:

I'm quite certain that no one is defending actual trafficking that does occur in this industry. However, when you are talking about native-born Independent providers, who are well above the age of majority, the percentage of actual trafficking instances are extremely small.

Personally, I'm pissed off to no end that adult women, having made a choice based on their own free will, are being labeled "victims" and legally persecuted if they don't fly the banner of the paternalist and religious forces that wish to control women and their sexual choices. This "human trafficking" band wagon parades (usually young immigrant) women out as though they are morons incapable of making a decision on their own, and the general public eats it up like it's dinner. If they are truly victims, then that should be dealt with accordingly, but let's not forget just how good that T-visa sounds to these women too. They do have a brain, after all.

Of course there are some awful things that go on in this industry. There are laws that cover assault, kidnapping, larceny, hostage taking, sexual abuse, pimping, etc. and they should most certainly be put into play when there are abuses occurring. However, to label ALL (or most) providers as victims of human trafficking is ridiculous, absolutely agree - and I don't and to arrest and prosecute them unless they march to that drum, even more so.

The reality is that the vast majority of providers targeted and affected by this ongoing crusade are NOT victims of human trafficking, if you mean those that used the board but had nothng to do with the "kgirls" bunch even if some of them use that story as a tactic to get out of whatever trouble they might find themselves when caught up in a sting. I've been there myself, and lied my way out of more than one sticky situation by playing the sweet little Miss Innocent. The waters are very muddy.

I would suggest that if our community were able to come out from the shadows legally, more of us would be willing to report situations where we suspect abuses are going on. And while the clients might be so depraved that they would have sex with anyone who seems to be a willing participant, it's unlikely another provider would overlook a similar situation IF she could feel confident that she wouldn't find herself in hot water for shining a light on herself by sharing what she knows.

All people in this industry, regardless of their circumstance, deserves to be safe and respected. Providers can be "rescued" from situations if need be, without criminalizing the activities of those who do not need rescuing.

 

 

And if you think I am REMOTELY arguing to the contrary of the "red" then you need to go back and read more carefully.  Legalization would cure many ills. In the meantime to lump all LE activity together as an evil waste of money and attack on innocent adults just enjoying life is just as ridiculous as lumping all prostitution in with trafficking.

[GinaXXX]

I haven't seen anyone suggest there there are no true victims of human trafficking, and I'm pretty sure that no one has ever said that no resources should be devoted to the true victims.

However, I (and many others, and probably including you) feel that there is a major problem when 100% of the resources goes towards casting a huge net, that for the most part traps grown women who are making their own choices regarding their sex lives. That they are able to ferret out a handful of "victims" (I put it in quotes, because the true victims are only a percentage of the "victims") from casting such a wide net is NOT OKAY.

It is actually possible to deal with pimping and human trafficking, without prostitution itself being illegal. Here in Canada they have been doing a bang-up job arresting pimps while leaving the providers alone (it's still legal to sell sex!), even since the law changed in December.

I agree that we should be self policing. I agree that we should care more about our fellow human beings. I also think that if commercial sex was ever legalized, there should be a minimum age of 25 years placed on it.

Jumping up and down pointing fingers at one another is pointless. We are all different, we all have different perspectives, and we all have different opinions. But the majority of us wish no harm on another person. We just want to be able to live our lives, having sex with whomever we choose for whatever reason we choose. Otherwise, we are not free.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by GinaXXX

[GinaXXX]

8 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

to lump all LE activity together as an evil waste of money and attack on innocent adults just enjoying life is just as ridiculous as lumping all prostitution in with trafficking.

I know that I've never said that all LE activity is a waste of money.

However, I do feel that spending money to arrest a whole bunch of people for prostitution, when the real goal is to find victims of pimps and human trafficking, is ridiculous. It actually is possible for LE to focus on the true criminals of the industry, without criminalizing the entire industry of prostitution.

In fact, if they turned their focus directly to human trafficking (instead of on prostitution) they would probably have much better success, since the participants in the community (namely providers) would feel much more comfortable going to the authorities when confronted by pimps or being aware of possible human trafficking.

[gr8owl]

5 minutes ago, GinaXXX said:

I haven't seen anyone suggest there there are no true victims of human trafficking, and I'm pretty sure that no one has ever said that no resources should be devoted to the true victims. Not by you, but it was very clearly stated above by others based upon the low percentage, which is what set me off on a couple rants.

However, I (and many others, and probably including you) feel that there is a major problem when 100% of the resources goes towards casting a huge net, that for the most part traps grown women who are making their own choices regarding their sex lives. That they are able to ferret out a handful of "victims" (I put it in quotes, because the true victims are only a percentage of the "victims") from casting such a wide net is NOT OKAY.

It is actually possible to deal with pimping and human trafficking, without prostitution itself being illegal. Here in Canada they have been doing a bang-up job arresting pimps while leaving the providers alone (it's still legal to sell sex!), even since the law changed in December.

I agree that we should be self policing. I agree that we should care more about our fellow human beings. I also think that if commercial sex was ever legalized, there should be a minimum age of 25 years placed on it.

Jumping up and down pointing fingers at one another is pointless. We are all different, we all have different perspectives, and we all have different opinions. But the majority of us wish no harm on another person. We just want to be able to live our lives, having sex with whomever we choose for whatever reason we choose. Otherwise, we are not free.

 

 

See, we agree. 

[Bit Banger]

20 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

... But from all indications the King County busts probably fit into the category of activities that SHOULD be busted and a pimp circle that SHOULD be broken up.  If most of the activities and participants on the board that was taken down were of the consensual adult variety then it is truly sad it got pulled down as a consequence of its association. ...

The material I've been reading indicates that TRB was a board similar to TOB supporting many ASPs.  But one of the founders created another board devoted to K-girls a few years ago.  Of the 12 charged, only 2 had trafficking charges.  The others had exploitation charges, a recent rewording from solicitation.  I have not seen any indication that any of these gentlemen were involved in the importation of these women, or involved in their servitude other than providing brothel facilities.  Were they aware of the immigration status of these women?  Perhaps, but we really don't know.  The real waste here is that they didn't get those involved in the importation and extortion of these women.

This bust definitely fits the Swedish Model, where selling sex is not illegal, but the purchase of sex is condemned.

 

[gr8owl]

1 minute ago, Bit Banger said:

The material I've been reading indicates that TRB was a board similar to TOB supporting many ASPs.  But one of the founders created another board devoted to K-girls a few years ago.  Of the 12 charged, only 2 had trafficking charges.  The others had exploitation charges, a recent rewording from solicitation.  I have not seen any indication that any of these gentlemen were involved in the importation of these women, or involved in their servitude other than providing brothel facilities.  Were they aware of the immigration status of these women?  Perhaps, but we really don't know.  The real waste here is that they didn't get those involved in the importation and extortion of these women.

This bust definitely fits the Swedish Model, where selling sex is not illegal, but the purchase of sex is condemned.

 

Is this the "build it and they will come" theory??  They were renting high dollar apartments without knowing for sure (part of the ring) there would be a stream of tenants and clients?  Surely you jest.

[Bit Banger]

Where do we draw the line between a pimp and other individuals who assist and profit from sex work?

[Bit Banger]

3 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

Is this the "build it and they will come" theory??  They were renting high dollar apartments without knowing for sure (part of the ring) there would be a stream of tenants and clients?  Surely you jest.

Or they were presented with a group of women who were willing to trade sex for a lease in a high dollar apartment?

But neither of us were involved in this ring, and therefore we don't know the sequence of events or the inner workings of the circle.

[Bit Banger]

Quote

Not by you, but it was very clearly stated above by others based upon the low percentage, which is what set me off on a couple rants.

I'm led to believe that you are referring to me in the above statement.  Having been trained as an engineer, I'm constantly looking for the ROI, looking for practical improvements available with limited resources.  One of the things I admire about Bill Gates' philanthropy is his engineering approach.  Instead of scattering his $s around, he asked what disease could be eradicated if he concentrated his investment (polio).

If I were to chose between eliminating unemployment and eliminating trafficking, I would chose unemployment because that more directly attacks poverty, which in turn may reduce trafficking.  Both hang at about 6% of their respective populations and are unlikely to really change.  Is that acceptable?  Not really, but acknowledging it is practical.  It allows us to devote our resources to problems where we may have a more significant impact.

Despite popular belief, government resources are finite.  Eventually abuse of the government's ability to tax and print money has grave consequences.

 

[Bit Banger]

21 minutes ago, gr8owl said:

Is this the "build it and they will come" theory??  They were renting high dollar apartments without knowing for sure (part of the ring) there would be a stream of tenants and clients?  Surely you jest.

Another theory would be that one or two (the brothel managers?) presented a plan to the group, "Kick into the pool for apartments and we'll find women to fill them."  The majority of the group didn't know the source of the women.

But as I said before, neither of us knows how it really happened.

[pfunk]

6 hours ago, Nikki Holiday said:

Pfunk I'm just wondering why you gave me a thumbs downs on this post. Normally I understand why you give me a thumbs down. it is because you white knight for the providers that you're friends with that hurt other providers.  And I usually leave you alone for it. I am in no way referencing your gf. She doesn't play that game. 

Help me understand this one thing, because being your girlfriend used to be a provider I would think you would want to see girls be safe. Perhaps you made a mistake.

Do you disagree that we don't have PIMPS in Colorado or that the PIMPS hurt providers or that they use there there own girls as references to obtain our location?

or is that you disagree with me that deserves "simple solution" as punishment? 

The way I see it since you gave me thumbs downs you think it's ok for pimps to hurt girls. They shouldn't have  consequences to suffer for their bullshit.   

 

 

PLEASE, stop GUESSING at why I gave you a thumbs down. You're making stuff up. I don't like vague posts that insinuate. 

As far as I can tell, you just posted non-specific accusations, without any real substance, or backup, to try and make yourself look important. Nothing useful.

I think you're a fantastic provider, but your "creative" posts, on here, rub me the wrong way. 

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by pfunk
spelling

[Lucy Kitten]

11 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Lucy, I don't see you boasting about your contributions to SWOP or COYOTE.  Why should I?

It took me a while to locate where I saw the $1.4M (a $1.5M DOJ grant to Seattle to combat trafficking).  I've been reading literally dozens of articles/posts on the TRB takedown.  But here is the link you demanded.  There are other SWOP articles in the TNA Seattle discussion forums.  You might note their complaints that the absence of TRB creates a danger to the ASP population.

And yes, I do know that the push is for decriminalization rather than legalization.  My choice of words was a carry-over from Mr. Reindeer's post.

Kudos you learned to google and now know a few of the many sex work organizations. I personally am more of a The Barbaries and Red Umbrella kind of girl. I have also given fellow providers cash, a place to live, computers, clothes, help them find places to live and shared an incall. It's not a pissing contest but you claim that you care and yet just about every statement you make is contradictory to common activist and decrim speech. Also pro sex work talk falls flat here every time. Did anyone know that December 17th was End Violence Against Sex Workers Day? The conversaton about the lawsuit in California barely made a ripple. There is no point in bringing it up here because no one really pays attention to it.

I mentioned SWOP and their reaction in the thread about TRB being taken down. I addressed that comment. The absence of TRB does not create a danger. They are a high end site and the high end ladies are protecting their playground. There are still two other local boards in the PNW, TNA and Hobby Hunter. P411, TER, Slixa, Eros and CathtyRS2K are all national some international sites. These providers have places to go. That was a comment to draw sympathy and distract and holy shit did that work.

SWOP's reaction is disheartening. The day of the seizure SWOP was defending TRB's exclusive nature on twitter. I also addressed that in thread about TRB and even posted a tweet from Savannah Sly. If you read the post on TNA from SWOP did you not read the reaction? Their community is not happy with SWOP, a supposed sex work positive group first tried to deny there was any truth and then defended the very selective nature of the site. Did you read the comments from the women who were asked for personal interviews before they were allowed on? FFS SWOP members advertised on TRB, that is how they made their cash and we all know you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Do you not see the fallacy in your own post? SWOP says losing a site creates danger for providers goes to another local site to talk about it. I can't fucking roll my eyes hard enough at that bullshit hypocrisy.  Not at you but you bought their BS. Obviously it's not the end of the world for them it's just problematic because TNA is 250 an hour place and TRB was a 400 an hour place.

This was a fuck up of epic proportions that occurred within a board, no one is denying that LE isn't a little pervasive at times but I am sure you got the gist from TNA that this really didn't come as a surprise to the others in the area. The initial thread on TNA was taken down which is unfortunate. There was a lot of schadenfreude that day. 

If LE and the FBI were just going balls out and bringing everything down why didn't they? Why did TNA remain, why do they seem not worried? Because they weren't doing what TRB was doing. With the exception of SW Companions, I can't think of a site that was busted and owner ended up innocent. I don't think there is a site yet that was seized and removed and not guilty. Well technically they're all a little guilty but the sites that have committed cardinal sins.

I said it in the TRB thread and I'll say it again here. The argument of inflated stats is being used to defend a site and it's a cheap move. It's a distraction and makes us not think about some of the more evil things that lurk in the shadows.

 

[Lucy Kitten]

8 hours ago, gr8owl said:

Is this the "build it and they will come" theory??  They were renting high dollar apartments without knowing for sure (part of the ring) there would be a stream of tenants and clients?  Surely you jest.

I know where those apartment buildings are. Bellevue is a hopping place, Microsoft is in that neighborhood, Eddie Bauer and many other big businesses that I can't remember now. There is nothing but $$$$$$$$$ to be made well there was at least, it seems tension there is high for obvious reasons. Those two buildings were also used by the local independent ladies so there was a lot of action there. I have a friend who works and partakes in Bellevue and he has commented on the inordinate amount of Asian women in those places. A lot of words to say your sarcasm was on point.

[Milos Vesely]

Since their movement to rescue "trafficked" girls five years ago, I wonder how many Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore have rescued?

[Bit Banger]

22 hours ago, Lucy Kitten said:

Kudos you learned to google and now know a few of the many sex work organizations.

...

It's a distraction and makes us not think about some of the more evil things that lurk in the shadows.

 

Actually I knew of SWOP and COYOTE long before ... I was about to say 'you became an escort', but I don't know your history well enough.  Let's leave it at ... your presence on TOB.

You complain about SWOP representing the H$H.  But why shouldn't they?  H$H clients are more likely to have influence, more able to aid in accomplishing SWOP's goals which affect all sex workers.  Besides, H$H are sex workers, too.

You perform good deeds for you fellow prostitutes.  Good for you.  Let's beat our chests and proclaim how great we are.

Yes, evil things lurk in the shadows - everywhere!   There are lots of evil organizations in this world.  Consider ISIS.  But in this case it would be the OC which are supposed to have extorted and imported the K-girls  involved in the TRB bust.  But where are they?  Certainly not on the indictment list.

I suppose The League get's painted with the 'all pimps are evil' brush.  But that's a gross generalization.  Ask the gals who worked for the Everleigh sisters.  I don't really know the inner workings of The League.  Do you?  Can you cite reliable, non-LE sources?  (I discount LE sources as being biased in the matter.) The truth of the matter is that the majority of them have not been charged with serious crimes(*).  Why is that?

Yes, there's lots of money in Bellevue.  There's lots of money in the DTC, or Dallas, or NYC.  Your point is?

 

(*) Part of the horrific nature of these charges rests with recent changes in the language of the pertinent laws.  See my previous post.

[Lucy Kitten]

15 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

Actually I knew of SWOP and COYOTE long before ... I was about to say 'you became an escort', but I don't know your history well enough.  Let's leave it at ... your presence on TOB.

You complain about SWOP representing the H$H.  But why shouldn't they?  H$H clients are more likely to have influence, more able to aid in accomplishing SWOP's goals which affect all sex workers.  Besides, H$H are sex workers, too.

You perform good deeds for you fellow prostitutes.  Good for you.  Let's beat our chests and proclaim how great we are.

Yes, evil things lurk in the shadows - everywhere!   There are lots of evil organizations in this world.  Consider ISIS.  But in this case it would be the OC which are supposed to have extorted and imported the K-girls  involved in the TRB bust.  But where are they?  Certainly not on the indictment list.

I suppose The League get's painted with the 'all pimps are evil' brush.  But that's a gross generalization.  Ask the gals who worked for the Everleigh sisters.  I don't really know the inner workings of The League.  Do you?  Can you cite reliable, non-LE sources?  (I discount LE sources as being biased in the matter.) The truth of the matter is that the majority of them have not been charged with serious crimes(*).  Why is that?

Yes, there's lots of money in Bellevue.  There's lots of money in the DTC, or Dallas, or NYC.  Your point is?

 

(*) Part of the horrific nature of these charges rests with recent changes in the language of the pertinent laws.  See my previous post.

The whole point is that you were beating your chest about how well informed you thought you were.

The comment about Bellevue being flush with cash is in line with the conversation you were having with Gr8owl. And the point was that these guys knew what they were doing because there is no lack of demand in Bellevue. LOL BTW DTC can't hold a candle to the cash and the market in Bellevue. Where there is Microsoft there are nerds and conventions and hundreds of world travelers. It's also a big city in a state that gets a lot of Asian travelers, students, immigrants etc. It was ripe for the picking.

You want perspective why don't you talk to the folks in Seattle. Actually read what the members of TNA had to say. You are continually overlooking that the majority of the community knew what TRB was up to. My sources are conversations that I have had with people in the area, friends and other sex workers. But I would suggest reading the comments of JerseyGuy and MadVic on TNA.

The high end sex workers are protecting their interests not the average sex worker. Like I said at least twice before SWOP was defending an exclusive site which is totally counter-intuitive to a group that is supposed to support all types of sex workers. Where was SWOP when SoWet went down? There were no where to be found because SoWet wasn't a "high class" site. The high end sex worker is the minority and they only look out for themselves. They are worried about losing one resource while there are plenty of sex workers that have none, no regular access to the internet, no computer. SWOP also doesn't dole out cash to those really in need, they're just a voice that tells a community what's right and what's wrong.  The high end sex worker has a voice because they can afford to have one. They speak out because there is no fear of losing business. Many of them have never known a single day in the life of the average sex worker. If you really wanted to get involved and be informed start listening to providers that are telling how it is. Basically what you're telling me is that elite have a bigger voice because they make more money and we should all listen? I call bullshit.To clarify I should say SWOP Seattle, other SWOP chapters have really done amazing things.

The members of The League are getting painted with the pimps are evil brush because it's more than likely accurate. Are you truly %100 confident that they are innocent? That there was absolutely zero coercion and that all of the women in question were here legally? I read your previous post and you are behind the times again. You don't have to beat your hoes and carry and cane to be an abusive, manipulative prickish pimp. "Pimping" comes in lots of varieties.

When you ignore the ugly that does happen you deny it's reality.The shit that happens without our knowing it on the sites we use should be known. And I really can't believe you brought up ISIS what the fuck? Continue not to believe and continue to deny the actual victims. Which is just kind of a dick move. The real victims will never get the help they deserve because no one believes them.

[Guest]

On January 16, 2016 at 3:35 PM, pfunk said:

PLEASE, stop GUESSING at why I gave you a thumbs down. You're making stuff up. I don't like vague posts that insinuate. 

As far as I can tell, you just posted non-specific accusations, without any real substance, or backup, to try and make yourself look important. Nothing useful.

I think you're a fantastic provider, but your "creative" posts, on here, rub me the wrong way. 

 

I am no more important in my opinions or when I mention facts than you are. 

The last guy "Mr. Raindear" that said I Lied turned out to be true. Lol. All the guys on the form saw who it, know it to be fact. 

I left that post vague simply because everyone knows Denver has several PIMPS. Yes there is a female Pimp too. Otherwise the FBI/VICE wouldn't be given $300,000.00 every year. 

 There's no need for me to mention names, we know who they are common knowledge among several providers and clients on this form. On that note I hope this post really rubbed you the wrong way. Its impossible for you to explain that this is a lie, that i made it up on my part. So stuff it! 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Nikki Holiday

[MrReindeer-9515]

9 hours ago, Nikki Holiday said:

I am no more important in my opinions or when I mention facts than you are. 

The last guy "Mr. Raindear" that said I Lied turned out to be true. Lol. All the guys on the form saw who it, know it to be fact. 

I left that post vague simply because everyone knows Denver has several PIMPS. Yes there is a female Pimp too. Otherwise the FBI/VICE wouldn't be given $300,000.00 every year. 

 There's no need for me to mention names, we know who they are common knowledge among several providers and clients on this form. On that note I hope this post really rubbed you the wrong way. Its impossible for you to explain that this is a lie, that i made it up on my part. So stuff it! 

 

*Sigh*

I don't believe I ever said you lied either implicitly or explicitly.

I do think you are painfully ignorant, paranoid shill for P411 with delusions of grandeur and a huge persecution complex, who spends considerable amounts of time and space devoted to drama and airing dirty laundry publicly; but as far as calling you a liar, I don't recall that. 

[Bit Banger]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 11:14 PM, Lucy Kitten said:

...

1) You want perspective why don't you talk to the folks in Seattle. Actually read what the members of TNA had to say. You are continually overlooking that the majority of the community knew what TRB was up to. My sources are conversations that I have had with people in the area, friends and other sex workers. But I would suggest reading the comments of JerseyGuy and MadVic on TNA.

2) The high end sex workers are protecting their interests not the average sex worker. ... Basically what you're telling me is that elite have a bigger voice because they make more money and we should all listen? I call bullshit.To clarify I should say SWOP Seattle, other SWOP chapters have really done amazing things.

3) The members of The League are getting painted with the pimps are evil brush because it's more than likely accurate. Are you truly %100 confident that they are innocent? That there was absolutely zero coercion and that all of the women in question were here legally?...

4) When you ignore the ugly that does happen you deny it's reality.The shit that happens without our knowing it on the sites we use should be known. And I really can't believe you brought up ISIS what the fuck? Continue not to believe and continue to deny the actual victims. Which is just kind of a dick move. The real victims will never get the help they deserve because no one believes them.

Reference the numbers in red above:

1) I did read their comments, most of which sounded like sour grapes.

2) Of course the H$H are protecting their interests.  That doesn't mean they don't have common issues with the average sex worker.  It's a reality in this world, money talks!  I didn't say I like it, but I'm pragmatic enough to acknowledge it.  Just look at today's politics.

3) Are you 100% certain that members of The League are guilty?  That they were actively involved in procurement (kidnapping, smuggling, coercing) the YL involved.  I'm not convinced that they (or most of them) did or even had direct knowledge of these activities.  I'm not even convinced that the YL involved were coerced, but might be telling a tale to avoid prosecution.  It's called 'reasonable doubt', which I will maintain until they are convicted by a jury of their peers or I'm presented with hard evidence removing that doubt.  Based on the charges, I don't think the DA has that evidence.

4) Yes, I mentioned ISIS - as an example of something truly evil in today's world.    They are killing hundreds, displacing thousands, and destroying sites of cultural heritage.  They are committing acts of ethnic and religious cleansing we haven't seen in years.  It's hard to worry about a match when a forest is on fire. 

I'm not trying to be Pollyanna or an ostrich.  I'm just trying to perform mental triage.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MrReindeer said:

*Sigh*

I don't believe I ever said you lied either implicitly or explicitly.

I do think you are painfully ignorant, paranoid shill for P411 with delusions of grandeur and a huge persecution complex, who spends considerable amounts of time and space devoted to drama and airing dirty laundry publicly; but as far as calling you a liar, I don't recall that. 

Now your funny. The only reason you'll get away this post is 1. Your post was deleted. I have a copy of it  2. You white knight for the providers who hurt other girls (wait your Friends with them) The girls never forget. The providers who read your shillings for those girls know better. I am one of them. 

I do shill for P411 because The fact is P411 Rocks. The way she has it set up, it protects the guys personal information. Wait it's too late for you. Because you already gave out your real name to those girls. 

Enough said. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Nikki Holiday

[MrReindeer-9515]

39 minutes ago, Nikki Holiday said:

Now your funny. The only reason you'll get away this post is 1. Your post was deleted. I have a copy of it  2. You white knight for the providers who hurt other girls (wait your Friends with them) The girls never forget. The providers who read your shillings for those girls know better. I am one of them. 

I do shill for P411 because The fact is P411 Rocks. The way she has it set up, it protects the guys personal information. Wait it's too late for you. Because you already gave out your real name to those girls. 

Enough said. 

Really?

While I've had many posts deleted, they are mostly taking off on misinformed folks like yourself.

Perhaps you could find some examples of my shilling for other providers? I'm sure not all of those were deleted.

As far as this phantom post where I accused you of lying: shoot me a copy; if it is as you say, I'm a big enough guy to admit I'm wrong and to eat some crow. 

In regards to who my friends may or may not be: well, that's not really any of your business; and really how would you know?

I've had no problem seeing ASP's in the last 30 years, and while this might come as a shock, I don't have any problem giving out personal info and I don't need P411 to get laid.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Nikki Holiday said:

You white knight for the providers who hurt other girls (wait your Friends with them) 

I find this very difficult to believe. I have been reading the reindeer's posts for years and I doubt he has any friends 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Raoul said:

I find this very difficult to believe. I have been reading the reindeer's posts for years and I doubt he has any friends 

LOL!  Indeed!  I would be surprised to learn he had a mother!!!

[Guest]

We are still discussing this?!?!  I thought we had already determined that the kitty was a weapon of mass destruction used by terrorists world wide!  What else needs to be said?

[Lucy Kitten]

8 hours ago, MrReindeer said:

Really?

While I've had many posts deleted, they are mostly taking off on misinformed folks like yourself.

Perhaps you could find some examples of my shilling for other providers? I'm sure not all of those were deleted.

As far as this phantom post where I accused you of lying: shoot me a copy; if it is as you say, I'm a big enough guy to admit I'm wrong and to eat some crow. 

In regards to who my friends may or may not be: well, that's not really any of your business; and really how would you know?

I've had no problem seeing ASP's in the last 30 years, and while this might come as a shock, I don't have any problem giving out personal info and I don't need P411 to get laid.

There are lots of things you're guilty of but shilling certainly isn't one of them. But I guess if supposedly supporting an unpopular opinion (provider) is shilling then you are guilty, no trial, no jury straight to the chair.

Misinformation is so rife it's almost palpable.

[Lucy Kitten]

3 hours ago, Laplace said:

LOL!  Indeed!  I would be surprised to learn he had a mother!!!

Is it irony when you respond in such a sophomoric manner about someone you don't like having no mother? I can never get irony right. But that seems pretty ironic to me.

[boink36]

After reading the last few posts it's clear  this discussion is no longer about the OP.