Seized by the FBI---> http://thereviewboardnet

[Lucy Kitten]

58 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

58 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

We get a slippery slope here with "coercion".  Is it coercion if you book with a YL who needs to pay her bills, or if there is an agent/madam/pimp behind them?  Some feminist claim that any woman who is engaged in prostitution has been coerced, no exceptions. 

I don't deny that trafficking or underage providers exist. But how much?  Nobody really knows.  As the YL here on TOB illustrate, it isn't 100%.  I just don't like having the rest of the trade lumped into the evil category. One of the reasons The Netherlands legalized prostitution is that it takes the 'legitimate' portion of the trade out of the shadows, out of control of the underground, and reduces demand for the seamier practitioners.  This is also the rationale for the recent change in Amnesty International's position.

 

I don't know why this conversation is so muddled. If it's about TRB there is no slippery slope. There are some feminists also believe in pro-life, so what's your point? Are you conflating the every day coercion that providers face with the actual trafficking that's happening in the PNW?

Do you have to know the exact amount of trafficking so you can measure out your awareness and willingness to deal with it? The fact that the number is not zero should make it an important enough cause. I applaud AI for their stance but they have to do more with it. The countries where it's legalized with the exception of a few are suffering. C-36 in Canada was basically the Nordic model and we all know how well that actually works.

All of the trade is guilty that's the problem. Where you have an adult site you have users that abuse it. The promoting of anonymity and the already taboo nature makes it easy for things to slide right under the radar for everyone. There is no site that is free of the dark and scary. Where there are escort ads there are pimps. I would imagine the members of "The League" that started as members of TRB were your pretty standard board participants just blending right in, writing reviews and participated on the boards.

I think what you're saying is that there is illegal and super illegal and since you think that what you do should be legal you don't want to be lumped with the super illegal. If you really don't want to be lumped in with all the rest then believe it when trafficking actually happens. Don't question the stats and just learn from all the shit that happens.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Lucy Kitten

[Scarlett Dayne]

2 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

We get a slippery slope here with "coercion".  Is it coercion if you book with a YL who needs to pay her bills, or if there is an agent/madam/pimp behind them?  Some feminist claim that any woman who is engaged in prostitution has been coerced, no exceptions. 

I don't deny that trafficking or underage providers exist. But how much?  Nobody really knows.  As the YL here on TOB illustrate, it isn't 100%.  I just don't like having the rest of the trade lumped into the evil category. One of the reasons The Netherlands legalized prostitution is that it takes the 'legitimate' portion of the trade out of the shadows, out of control of the underground, and reduces demand for the seamier practitioners.  This is also the rationale for the recent change in Amnesty International's position.

A lot...

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2015/october/operation-cross-country

[Scarlett Dayne]

1 hour ago, Lucy Kitten said:

I don't know why this conversation is so muddled. If it's about TRB there is no slippery slope. There are some feminists also believe in pro-life, so what's your point? Are you conflating the every day coercion that providers face with the actual trafficking that's happening in the PNW?

Do you have to know the exact amount of trafficking so you can measure out your awareness and willingness to deal with it? The fact that the number is not zero should make it an important enough cause. I applaud AI for their stance but they have to do more with it. The countries where it's legalized with the exception of a few are suffering. C-36 in Canada was basically the Nordic model and we all know how well that actually works.

All of the trade is guilty that's the problem. Where you have an adult site you have users that abuse it. The promoting of anonymity and the already taboo nature makes it easy for things to slide right under the radar for everyone. There is no site that is free of the dark and scary. Where there are escort ads there are pimps. I would imagine the members of "The League" that started as members of TRB were your pretty standard board participants just blending right in, writing reviews and participated on the boards.

I think what you're saying is that there is illegal and super illegal and since you think that what you do should be legal you don't want to be lumped with the super illegal. If you really don't want to be lumped in with all the rest then believe it when trafficking actually happens. Don't question the stats and just learn from all the shit that happens.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I Have NO Guilt in this what so ever.

I will always turn someone in if I suspect underage prostitution, human slavery and/or human sex trafficking... Always!

I care about the other girls. Yes they are ultimately my competition, but they are also fellow women that I have care, concern and love for no matter what kind of life they live.

If this makes you upset, mad or angry in any way the best thing for you to do is not ever see me.

I am Not a force to be reckoned with when it comes to justice lol. I care about other people, and will put my life on the line to help others in need.

[Bit Banger]

2 hours ago, gr8owl said:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coerce

No "slippery slope". The meaning is clear, as was my intent. And the answer to your straw man question about bills is "no". But the answer to pimp portion is "yes, very likely"

and see number 6:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denial

Oh, I agree with you & Webster. My problem is with the advocacy groups who expand the definition to include things like personal economic situations being used by generous gentlemen to obtain sexual favors. This expanded definition is then used to inflate the size of the oppressed group and request additional funding to address the terrible problem. 

[Lucy Kitten]

14 hours ago, Scarlett Dayne said:

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I Have NO Guilt in this what so ever.

I will always turn someone in if I suspect underage prostitution, human slavery and/or human sex trafficking... Always!

I care about the other girls. Yes they are ultimately my competition, but they are also fellow women that I have care, concern and love for no matter what kind of life they live.

If this makes you upset, mad or angry in any way the best thing for you to do is not ever see me.

I am Not a force to be reckoned with when it comes to justice lol. I care about other people, and will put my life on the line to help others in need.

Not saying the individuals are guilty. What I am saying is find an adult oriented site that doesn't have some sort of seedy issue. It's really hard. It's even harder to pick and choose or make lists of who's good and who's not. The point is these sites have had some issues and all of us who use the sites are going to be clumped into one big group because we are all breaking the law.

The problem with The Review Board is that everyone was guilty. They were all aware of what was going on and refused to do anything about it. Even the social justice warriors in Seattle turned a bind eye. This isn't uncommon behavior, loyalty to a brand leaves many with tunnel vision.

[Lucy Kitten]

14 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Oh, I agree with you & Webster. My problem is with the advocacy groups who expand the definition to include things like personal economic situations being used by generous gentlemen to obtain sexual favors. This expanded definition is then used to inflate the size of the oppressed group and request additional funding to address the terrible problem. 

This expanded definition you're whining about has no place in the conversation. The Review Board is guilty of helping traffick Korean women and force them to work in brothels. There was no lying about stats in Bellevue that was a real investigation that uncovered a very serious crime.

The hobby community is using the inflated stats to defend their obviously guilty site. So those lies help both sides to an extent. Aren't you also an AMP protector? The "low hanging fruit" you like to call them? You know why they are targets but still protect them?

Coercion is common is this business. A guy who knowingly uses a ladies financial status to get what he wants is being coercive. So is the guy that threatens reviews, or says that GFE means XYZ, the guy who tells you if you don't do it the TOB way you're doing it wrong and my favorite you better to do me what you did to Joe Schmo because I read it in a review.

For once we have an issue that the collective community is guilty of. This isn't the time to blame police or the FBI it's time that we look at ourselves and our communities and do better.

 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Lucy Kitten said:

 

Coercion is common is this business. A guy who knowingly uses a ladies financial status to get what he wants is being coercive. So is the guy that threatens reviews, or says that GFE means XYZ, the guy who tells you if you don't do it the TOB way you're doing it wrong and my favorite you better to do me what you did to Joe Schmo because I read it in a review.

 

 

Lucy,  I need some help, here.

I agree ( or don't actively disagree) with your comments about coercion in green.  I need to know how to deal with your comment in red, if I am to do no harm.

What I primarily want is to get laid.   The provider is doing this, primarily, because she needs the money.  Am I coercing her to have sex?  Doesn't this standard make every woman I see a victim, unless they are independently wealthy?  I know for a fact that several providers I have met in the past were much less well-off than I  Should I therefore NOT see any more providers, because it is not possible to see one without coercion? 

I try to see only mature ladies.  I avoid places like BP because of trafficking.  Yet, It seems that, no matter what I do, I am a bad person.  

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

Catharine MacKinnon

 

[Bit Banger]

17 hours ago, Scarlett Dayne said:

A lot...

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2015/october/operation-cross-country

A lot? They netted 149 victims in a multi-state, multi-agency operation. I suppose 1 is too many. But at what costs? How many millions of $s?

Perfect is the enemy of good.

The Denver article linked by your reference states that 20 victims were rescued and 7 pimps arrested. P411 lists 319 providers for CO, which I'm sure is a low estimate of the total number of providers in CO. Still the victims represent less than 1% (0.63%) when measured against P411.  That's almost Ivory soap pure (99.44%).

The referenced article also fails to mention a total for how many were scooped up in the operation. How many providers & clients who were not trafficked, who were not minors, had their lives ruined by this operation?  By failing to provide this contrast, or even acknowledge it, the article gives the impression that ALL prostitution involves pedophiles & slavery. Thus furthering the Progressive cause. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Bit Banger

[Bit Banger]

1 hour ago, Laplace said:

 

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

Catharine MacKinnon

 

Yes, Laplace you are a brute, a Neandrthal who wants nothing more than to fulfill his sexual imperatives. 😛

The MacKinnon quote is the type of hyperbole I'm talking about. It distorts the conversation, preventing rational discourse on the topic. 

[Bit Banger]

51 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

A lot? They netted 149 victims in a multi-state, multi-agency operation. I suppose 1 is too many. But at what costs? How many millions of $s

Perfect is the enemy of good.

We accept 5-6% as an unemployment rate, yet even <1% is too much for this topic. We often forget the 80/20 rule (80% of the cost is for the last 20% of the project). Would the millions of $s spent on Operation Cross Country be better spent on improving our overall economy?  On reducing the poverty in families & providing alternatives to slavery?

Another bee in my bonnet regarding the hype associated with the sex trade is just how much of the trafficking/slave industry is related to sex? It pales when compared to farm labor, garment shops, and other industries. As one NY reporter recently discovered, even her nail saloon.  But these don't get near the amount of press, LE attention, or funding.

Sex sells!

[Danielle Rae]

On 1/8/2016 at 7:20 AM, Bit Banger said:

But were those 22 snared by capturing & hacking the servers or by using P411 in more traditional sting operations?

From what I have heard, LE convinced one or more ladies to give them P411 OKs.  They used these vetted accounts to book & bust other ladies in the area.  While this threatens providers , it does not pose a danger to clients.  As a client I do NOT have access to another client's profile, let alone any billing information.

No, LE does not present a real threat to P411 clients.  The danger is from illegal activity (hacking) from moralists or extortionist, as happened to Ashley Madison.  But that danger exists if you conduct any business with computers; just ask the customers of Target, Home Depot, or the VA.

EDIT: As for the 'sex trafficking site' label, that's part of their campaign to expand the definition and justify funding.  Remember, every run-away teen is 'at risk', and therefore counted in trafficking statistics.  A common tactic of advocate groups. 

My point was that they are already watching the site - regardless of what or whom may be to blame - the fact is what it is.  And the servers being off shore mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the possible legal ramifications for the providers (that's what I meant when I said the site owners may very well be off shore, but the 22 girls were in Denver.)   You are probably correct that the infiltration doesn't really pose much risk to the client but as a provider, I think it definitely matters and is all the more reason to be careful and cautious.  

[Danielle Rae]

and yes I completely agree with you Bit Banger about their campaign to expand the def and justify funding. 

 

[Guest]

On January 9, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Scarlett Dayne said:

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I Have NO Guilt in this what so ever.

I will always turn someone in if I suspect underage prostitution, human slavery and/or human sex trafficking... Always!

I care about the other girls. Yes they are ultimately my competition, but they are also fellow women that I have care, concern and love for no matter what kind of life they live.

If this makes you upset, mad or angry in any way the best thing for you to do is not ever see me.

I am Not a force to be reckoned with when it comes to justice lol. I care about other people, and will put my life on the line to help others in need.

+1 Scarlett. I too have have no guilt. I am not being forced either. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Laplace said:

I try to see only mature ladies. I avoid places like BP because of trafficking.  Yet, It seems that, no matter what I do, I am a bad person.  

Laplace, don't listen to that bullshit that some these girls put off. Someone of these girls just tell all you guys this BULLSHIT  so they get what they want from you. Don't fall for it. 

Hugs & Kisses Laplace. https://wherethewildthingsare14.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/tumblr_mj39a41auq1rzxujso1_500.gif?w=580

[Danielle Rae]

1 hour ago, Nikki Holiday said:

Laplace, don't listen to that bullshit that some these girls put off. Someone of these girls just tell all you guys this BULLSHIT  so they get what they want from you. Don't fall for it. 

Hugs & Kisses Laplace. https://wherethewildthingsare14.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/tumblr_mj39a41auq1rzxujso1_500.gif?w=580

 Did I miss something???  

 

[Bit Banger]

11 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

A lot? They netted 149 victims in a multi-state, multi-agency operation. I suppose 1 is too many. But at what costs? How many millions of $s?

Perfect is the enemy of good.

The Denver article linked by your reference states that 20 victims were rescued and 7 pimps arrested. P411 lists 319 providers for CO, which I'm sure is a low estimate of the total number of providers in CO. Still the victims represent less than 1% (0.63%) when measured against P411.  That's almost Ivory soap pure (99.44%).

The referenced article also fails to mention a total for how many were scooped up in the operation. How many providers & clients who were not trafficked, who were not minors, had their lives ruined by this operation?  By failing to provide this contrast, or even acknowledge it, the article gives the impression that ALL prostitution involves pedophiles & slavery. Thus furthering the Progressive cause. 

It has been pointed out to me, correctly and by a male member of our community I might add, that I slipped a digit in my calculations.

The number of victims in Operation Cross Country is equivalent to 6.3% of the P411 CO population.  A percentage comparable to the excepted rate of unemployment, not the purity of Ivory soap.  My apologies for this math error.

That does not effect my remarks of the 2nd paragraph (above) regarding the failure to report those not involved in trafficking, creating the impression that ALL prostitution involves trafficking.

 

[GinaXXX]

I few things I'd like to point out:

Sites being "taken down" has been going on since the beginning of the internet. A major incident happens approximately once per year (a la Escorts.com or Redbook), and the only questions are when and who is next.

TRB was a very old and well established site. Since I was a Canadian (Vancouver) provider traveling to/through Seattle regularly I was also a part of that community back in 2000-2001. They held very lavish and well attended parties (I attended too!) at high end hotels back then, and as far as I know continued with these parties through to today. I don't know what else TRB was involved in, but if you've been around any length of time you know that parties are always a really bad idea.

Human trafficking is a sad reality in this business, although in my opinion that percentage is quite small. One thing that skews the numbers is the fact that any provider who has immigration issues and is faced with an arrest MUST claim that she is being trafficked. There a visa available to her if she does (http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/victims-human-trafficking-other-crimes/victims-human-trafficking-t-nonimmigrant-status), and if she doesn't she will be deported.

P411 is a Canadian owned and operated company. We have to follow the laws of Canada, not the laws of the US.... which we do. We also pay 100% of the taxes we owe, always have and always will (I learned that from the Heidi Fleiss story!). It is very simple to become an anonymous member of the site (2 provider references) and we have anonymous payment methods as well. If you are still concerned about the FBI seizing the database and somehow figuring out who you are, please remember that there's nothing illegal about being a member of P411, just as there is nothing illegal about being a member of TOB or any other site. However, if you are found to be committing a crime in your jurisdiction regardless of what sites you are a member of, you would then have something to be concerned about.

We have had a few client accounts compromised (always the human error or "gotta save my ass!" method), and providers have been targeted through those compromised client accounts. We've been in business for nearly 11 years, and there have been 9 client accounts used to bust providers. There's bound to be more in the future, but when you take the numbers into consideration, the percentage of legal problems is very low.

What I'm very happy to say is that the percentage of providers being physically harmed by clients on P411 is almost zero. We have only had a single credible report of an assault. That provider decided to report him to the authorities and he was dealt with accordingly. Also, there have been multiple times that I've become aware of situations that gave me serious concern about the legal age of the provider and/or legitimate human trafficking abuses. If I have those concerns, I have absolutely no problem reporting them. I have done it in the past, and I will continue to do it in the future. I'm happy to be in a position where I can feel safe reporting this type of concern, and I've always been treated with respect when doing so.

Nothing in life is certain, and nothing in this industry is certain either. However, I'm prepared to deal with whatever comes my way and in the end my loyalty will always lie with this community. I'm not some dummy who would pee in her panties should someone come knocking on my door, trust that.

Stay safe out there.

Always,

Gina

[Danielle Rae]

Not sure if this has already been posted but I stumbled across the Sheriff's press conference re the take down of TRB  https://youtu.be/ardUdF12LUw

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Danielle Rae said:

Not sure if this has already been posted but I stumbled across the Sheriff's press conference re the take down of TRB  https://youtu.be/ardUdF12LUw

Good information, thank you for posting this Danielle Rae. Im glad this sheriff mentioned the police are aware that Escorts are keeping track of the Johns when they are vetted. Sadly, the sheriff is telling the truth. Another thing that is true, is that other crimes are being committed. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Nikki Holiday

[Danielle Rae]

2 hours ago, Nikki Holiday said:

Good information, thank you for posting this Danielle Rae. Im glad this sheriff mentioned the police are aware that Escorts are keeping track of the Johns when they are vetted. Sadly, the sheriff is telling the truth. Another thing that is true, is that other crimes are being committed. 

Actually the sheriff was referring to the site itself, TRB, having the clients'' information (ie. business email, photo ID) on their servers and how despite their efforts to "delete" said information the sheriff says "Well we all know that you can't erase information from your computer and that is where a lot of our search warrants went." (TRB's computer data)

[Azure Dee]

Another one bites the dust....but this was done by choice by the owner/admin... AdultHobbyBoard

[GinaXXX]

Love this synopsis, very astute observations, make sure you watch it through. 

https://youtu.be/Bz3crgtcHwY

[Bit Banger]

interesting video, Gina. 

Here's another article on the bust

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Bit Banger said:

interesting video, Gina. 

Here's another article on the bust

Yup.  I'm having a hard time distinguishing my participation and reviews here with what "The League" mentioned in the article did.  And they were all given felony charges.

Time to pick a few favorites and retire.  No more strange.  Certainly limit board participation.  

[Lucy Kitten]

1 hour ago, Laplace said:

Yup.  I'm having a hard time distinguishing my participation and reviews here with what "The League" mentioned in the article did.  And they were all given felony charges.

Time to pick a few favorites and retire.  No more strange.  Certainly limit board participation.  

Join TNA and read all about it. You weren't doing what those guys did. What they were doing was seriously illegal and it wasn't their board participation that got them arrested, it was all that they did outside of the boards that was the problem.

The author of that article is friends with some of the biggest (snobbiest) activists in Seattle who were also users of TRB. So I would think that you could safely assume that there is at least a very tiny amount of bias.

I get that I am "dummy" whose posts don't carry much weight anymore but understand that this was not about overzealous LE. It was an ongoing problem that wasn't a secret to their community. It had long been known that TRB failed to properly vet all the agencies and less than savory things had gone down. It just so happens that TRB was viewed as high class site and it made a bunch of white women a ton of money so they kept their mouths shut. It was known that the only women of color they welcomed were Asian women and now we all know why.

It's time we open our eyes to the underworld around us and see it for what it all really is. Stop pretending that we're all so informed and actually start learning about what goes on.

[Bit Banger]

1 hour ago, Laplace said:

Yup.  I'm having a hard time distinguishing my participation and reviews here with what "The League" mentioned in the article did.  And they were all given felony charges.

Time to pick a few favorites and retire.  No more strange.  Certainly limit board participation.  

Let me help you with that.

The 10 who faces minor felony charges were board owners/founders.  The 2 facing major charges, including trafficking, were brothel managers in addition to being board owners/management.  Quite different from merely participating on the discussion boards and submitting reviews.  LE acknowledged that there were many more on the board with lots of data to sift through, but that these men were the principles of the case. One of these articles pointed out that at some point it becomes difficult to prosecute because of freedom of speech issues.

And just to inflate their(LE) public image, the Bellevue city council changed the name of the crime from "patronizing a prostitute" to "sexual exploitation".  It sounds so much better when applying for those grant $s and when explaining themselves to the public. Before long visiting our ATF by mutual consent will be referred to as rape.

Be careful, my friend, lest the Progressives fake you into a case of Lack-o-nookie or shame you into depression. They are just as potent as the cyber-bullies they tell us about. Heaven forbid they should be subjected to "offensive speech" restrictions. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Danielle Rae said:

Actually the sheriff was referring to the site itself, TRB, having the clients'' information (ie. business email, photo ID) on their servers and how despite their efforts to "delete" said information the sheriff says "Well we all know that you can't erase information from your computer and that is where a lot of our search warrants went." (TRB's computer data)

actually I did make a mistake on that one thing. Well dam I can't be perfect 100% of the time. Only 99.9% I am. 

Providers do ask for drivers license and email. This video is just another prime example why I tell all the guys to never give out there state ID.

You boys have other options. Start using them. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Nikki Holiday

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Bit Banger said:

Let me help you with that.

The 10 who faces minor felony charges were board owners/founders.  The 2 facing major charges, including trafficking, were brothel managers in addition to being board owners/management.  Quite different from merely participating on the discussion boards and submitting reviews.  LE acknowledged that there were many more on the board with lots of data to sift through, but that these men were the principles of the case. One of these articles pointed out that at some point it becomes difficult to prosecute because of freedom of speech issues.

And just to inflate their(LE) public image, the Bellevue city council changed the name of the crime from "patronizing a prostitute" to "sexual exploitation".  It sounds so much better when applying for those grant $s and when explaining themselves to the public. Before long visiting our ATF by mutual consent will be referred to as rape.

Be careful, my friend, lest the Progressives fake you into a case of Lack-o-nookie or shame you into depression. They are just as potent as the cyber-bullies they tell us about. Heaven forbid they should be subjected to "offensive speech" restrictions. 

Speaking of cyber bullying and extortion threats I'm starting to wonder when the FBI will take action on these felony crimes being committed by our local denver providers that publicly announced they are bullies lol. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Nikki Holiday

[Bit Banger]

Spotted an interesting side note while reading a TNA thread on the demise of TRB.  It seems the TRB manager heightened his security & tried to clean up after "the Denver bust."  I can only surmise they are referring to SoWet because a) It's the only major Denver bust I can think of in recent times and b) RT was heavily into the Korean AMP scene.

There's also an interesting response from SWOP-Seattle.

[pejo]

1 hour ago, Nikki Holiday said:

Providers do ask for drivers license and email.

Reminds me of the time I was in a FBSM session, on the table buck naked and hard as a rock. The provider says, "I need to see your driver's license before I finish up here. Or you can call up your Facebook page on my computer."

Yeah, ok. Not that desperate honey. She was very shocked when I said, "I can't do that, so let's just keep things clean and I'll be on my way."