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mtnman2000

My changing position on gun control

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Hi all.

I dont post often but would like a reasonable discussion on this hot topic. Please don't call me a bloody liberal or other personal insults.

I grew up with guns. I hunt, badly, I might add. In the 80's, I was outraged over the Waco and Ruby Ridge actions. I generally dislike all cops and traffic court judges. In college, I ran the College Republican club and when things were slow, we would invite the NRA or some survivalist to talk about the perils of gun control.

I'm older now, in my 40s.

I still own about 6 rifles/shotguns.

I would gladly give up my guns if I thought it would help prevent another shooting. I'm worried about going to movies. Not worried about a crazy person running into the theater but I'm worried about the person that is packing a gun just in case. And this same person getting upset and the gun being used in anger.

Most of my fellow co-workers are gun enthusiasts. When I brought my changing viewpoint on gun control, ALL of them told me they keep guns in case the government becomes oppressive and they need to overthrow it.

I want to scream.

Really? Overthrow the government? The US govt flows and ebbs and actually does have mini revolutions. The govt doesn't have the abilitiy to consolidate all power and become tryranical. I think this whole thing is farfetched and simplifies the problem.

My co-workers know all kinds of myriad details about guns. If you want to know the history of the ak47, they can gladly tell you an hour long history. They know loadouts, and things I that even though I hunt, I have no idea what they are talking about, like loadouts. They were camo and are constantly one-upping each other with their cool guns. To me, it's like their club. They belong to this fraternity of gun lovers and I can't see it ever changing. Their conversations are very similar to my friends that are avid golfers or fantasy football members. Just different subjects is all.

Back to govt...

I'm not saying there isn't corruption and power hungry douche bags throughout government from the local to the federal level but still, owning a gun isn't the answer.

Not that I've changed your mind but for arguments sake, lets say I did convince you that govt rebellion is not a valid reason to own guns.

If you take away guns from good guys, then only bad guys will have them. Well, only the bad guys and the cops. I'm ok with this scenario. Bad guys are the ones who plan devious crimes and my weekend of NRA training isn't going to give me an edge over a seasoned bad guy. I want to keep guns from the crazy people. So they buy from the black market. If the cops do their jobs, the black market will be "black"-ier eh? Or more difficult to get than the store?

Again, if we tabled govt rebellion and bad guys only have guns arguments, what about tradition, hunting, collecting etc.

These are easy answers. Hunting=Rent a Gun. Tradition and collecting are now in museums and life will need to change.

I'm not saying my mind is made up. It is open. I'm just dismayed at the answers and seek a better argument.

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This wont last as a discussion but it is a good one. If you were able to movie it to another venue I would love to discuss this topic.

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interesting thoughts here. i lean more toward the old 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' deal. i think what should be happening is a severe reboot of the mental health system in this country to keep obvious and identifiable wackjobs from having the things in the first place.

i get that the black market is still thriving just fine but aurora theater shooter bought all his arsenal legally. also, i'm fine with guns - in the old west when virtually everybody had a hog-leg strapped on, folks tended to be more polite toward one another.

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interesting thoughts here. i lean more toward the old 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' deal. i think what should be happening is a severe reboot of the mental health system in this country to keep obvious and identifiable wackjobs from having the things in the first place.

i get that the black market is still thriving just fine but aurora theater shooter bought all his arsenal legally. also, i'm fine with guns - in the old west when virtually everybody had a hog-leg strapped on, folks tended to be more polite toward one another.

+1. Yup.

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I'm a gun guy. I grew up with them, love their aesthetics, love to shoot. And I don't hunt. I just unabashedly love guns and sport shooting. I have a Colt AR. It's awesome.

I could easily kill the next hour writing a defense of gun ownership, but I'd rather ask something. And I'm not trying to set a trap or be a douchebag; I agree that it's time for some honest conversation.

Question is this: If you want more gun control, what kind of gun control do you believe would prevent mass shootings? Keep in that making all guns go away is logistically impossible. This isn't, say, Japan, where citizens never really had any guns to begin with. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US and there always will be, even if they're outlawed. Policy changes need to respect that reality.

That's not to say there isn't a gun legislation answer. I personally don't believe there is, but maybe someone has an idea I haven't thought of?

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It might perhaps be worth noting that each and every one of these "mass shootings" has taken place in a location in which the possession of guns was prohibited. In other words, these "crazy" people that committed these various acts chose act in places where they would find what might be called "easy victims." Taking guns out of the hands of people won't deal with the problem, all it will do is make those who do comply with the law easier victims of those that don't. The answers don't lie in more gun laws (most of those laws are already ineffective) but in trying to identify the people that are "likely" to commit such brutal acts. And it IS worth noting that the two largest "mass murders" in the US during the last 75 or so years took place without the use of guns, one used "box cutters" on 9/11/2001 and the other used legally purchased fertilizer to bomb the Oklahoma Federal Building. The answer isn't in trying to ban any "possible" weapon, but rather in identifying (and treating) individuals prone to such acts. Now if there's a way to do that, you'll have my support.

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I agree with the NRA position... Enforce the laws on the books now. Get rid of video games like "kindergarten killers" and violent video games! Quit glorifying war, death, and destruction in the movies!!! Armed guards at schools! Fix the real problem first! Allow parents the ability to blister little Johnny's or Janes ass!

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As I see this, there are already numerous laws that are not being enforced, either because the "authorities" don't have the resources, or it is just not practical to enforce. The only thing that more legislation will do is further limit the gun ownership of the folks that will follow the law. If a ban is put inplace for clip size or "assult weapons" (fully automatic weapons are already verboten) how will the folks that already own these things be compelled to give them up. Will the cartels and or other owners of such items willingly surrender them??????

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Hi all.

I dont post often but would like a reasonable discussion on this hot topic. Please don't call me a bloody liberal or other personal insults.

I grew up with guns. I hunt, badly, I might add. In the 80's, I was outraged over the Waco and Ruby Ridge actions. I generally dislike all cops and traffic court judges. In college, I ran the College Republican club and when things were slow, we would invite the NRA or some survivalist to talk about the perils of gun control.

I'm older now, in my 40s.

I still own about 6 rifles/shotguns.

I would gladly give up my guns if I thought it would help prevent another shooting. I'm worried about going to movies. Not worried about a crazy person running into the theater but I'm worried about the person that is packing a gun just in case. And this same person getting upset and the gun being used in anger.

Most of my fellow co-workers are gun enthusiasts. When I brought my changing viewpoint on gun control, ALL of them told me they keep guns in case the government becomes oppressive and they need to overthrow it.

I want to scream.

Really? Overthrow the government? The US govt flows and ebbs and actually does have mini revolutions. The govt doesn't have the abilitiy to consolidate all power and become tryranical. I think this whole thing is farfetched and simplifies the problem.

My co-workers know all kinds of myriad details about guns. If you want to know the history of the ak47, they can gladly tell you an hour long history. They know loadouts, and things I that even though I hunt, I have no idea what they are talking about, like loadouts. They were camo and are constantly one-upping each other with their cool guns. To me, it's like their club. They belong to this fraternity of gun lovers and I can't see it ever changing. Their conversations are very similar to my friends that are avid golfers or fantasy football members. Just different subjects is all.

Back to govt...

I'm not saying there isn't corruption and power hungry douche bags throughout government from the local to the federal level but still, owning a gun isn't the answer.

Not that I've changed your mind but for arguments sake, lets say I did convince you that govt rebellion is not a valid reason to own guns.

If you take away guns from good guys, then only bad guys will have them. Well, only the bad guys and the cops. I'm ok with this scenario. Bad guys are the ones who plan devious crimes and my weekend of NRA training isn't going to give me an edge over a seasoned bad guy. I want to keep guns from the crazy people. So they buy from the black market. If the cops do their jobs, the black market will be "black"-ier eh? Or more difficult to get than the store?

Again, if we tabled govt rebellion and bad guys only have guns arguments, what about tradition, hunting, collecting etc.

These are easy answers. Hunting=Rent a Gun. Tradition and collecting are now in museums and life will need to change.

I'm not saying my mind is made up. It is open. I'm just dismayed at the answers and seek a better argument.

For what its worth:

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

68597_528844427140129_1537133420_n.jpg

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!

SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! :D:D:D:D:eek:

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Mtn2000

Your frustration is understandable, but more gun laws are not the answer.

You can not discount the "only bad guys will have guns". Because they will.

Join some organizations that cater to gunners and you will be amazed at how many times across the USA a citizen using his or her gun has saved lives. You never see that press release.

If you do give up your reponsibility to bear arms, rest assured the rest of us will still be here to defend you.

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Hi all.

I dont post often but would like a reasonable discussion on this hot topic. Please don't call me a bloody liberal or other personal insults.

Looks like you and I see things differently. It is what it is.

Kudos for having the sand to bring up a touchy subject. Dialog is a good thing.

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So you would love to see the authoritarian government be the only ones with the power and guns, being free to commit as much genocide as possible. There have only been 262 million people slaughtered in the last century by governments who acted this very way, and brainwashed the tyranny of the majority in order to accomplish their evil attrocities. Many of the victims only wish they had some semblence of defense as they were marched to their holes freshly dug in the earth. 262 MILLION long forgotten innocent souls lost in genocide with no way to fight because the prelude was to disarm the population with gun control LAWS. Those guilty of committing these horrific crimes, are the very ones calling for gun control in any "reasonable" form today. The blood is on their hands alone, and that is history in repeat of itself. They are quite alright with the government coming in force to disarm and KILL US and our FAMILIES Today as well as tomorrow. These are evil communist/collective cowards, and the spawn of satan with not an ounce of true American left in them. These types like you will cheer as the government troops kick your door in and commit genocide all the while being included in the Bill of Rights. You are saying it is quite ok to not fight back when they kick in your doors to kill you. You still claim to be an American.

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