Posted December 21, 2012 Read the following article: http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/17/your-cellphone-is-spying-on-you A scenario and question for you legal eagles. I'm no genius, but if I've thought of this. so have others. Or have I just watched too many episodes of 'NCIS?' LE has long suspected that Suzie Creamschmear has been operating a "den of prostitution" from her comfortable suburban home. Neighbors have complained of much traffic at all hours. A nosy neighbor starts taking notes. Records license plates and times. Turns the info over to the police. Clients A, B, & C visit Suzie on Tuesday. They all write reviews. The reviews get posted on Wednesday. Wow....Suzie got three "fantastics." LE has the license plates of the clients. They can then query the cellphone providers to determine who provides the clients service, and get their phone info. They can then verify by GPS records that the person in question was indeed at the location noted at the specific time. They have a written confession of services exchanged for money in the form of a public review. Multiple clients are arrested, along with poor Suzie. Is this a problem? At the very least, if one were to continue hobbying, it would seem that one should leave all cellphones at home.....and never ever write a review. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 First of all, they cannot prove who wrote those reviews. Second of all, paranoid much? I think that you are WAY overthinking this. This is supposed to be fun so stop overthinking things and enjoy yourself man! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 First of all they cannot prove who wrote those reviews. Second of all paranoid much? I think that you are WAY overthinking this. This is supposed to be fun so stop overthinking things and enjoy yourself man! Not so sure about that. By requsting info from your ISP, they can tell when you visited a site. If it matches a review submittal, they know someone with access to that account posted it. LOL.....And just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me. If you truly want to cover your tracks, you should probably A) park down the street or around the corner. Make sure your phone does not have a separate battery for the GPS, and remove the battery BEFORE you arrive at the providers location. Don't put it back in until you've left. C) If you post a review, do it via an IP spoofer like TOR. Look.....I'm not saying we're all about to get our doors busted down. You're right in that we should relax and have fun. And I'm pretty lazy about always sticking to these rules. But I think we ALL need to be aware of the level of info that is available to LE now. If prostitution laws get changed to match the Swedish model (no crime for ASP, FELONY for client) the above tools WILL be used regularly. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 If you truly want to cover your tracks, you should probably A) park down the street or around the corner. Make sure your phone does not have a separate battery for the GPS, and remove the battery BEFORE you arrive at the providers location. Don't put it back in until you've left. C) If you post a review, do it via an IP spoofer like TOR. I would like to add to your list: D) Wear a tinfoil hat to every appointment… Sure, they can get us if they really want to and that is something that everybody should always be aware of. But I will tell you one thing for sure, If my level of paranoia excees the amount of fun I am having I am outta here. Obviously each individual has to decide for themselves if the worth outways the risk and only you know what is right for you. But seriously, there are other things that actually warrant this kind of paranoia going on in our society and in my humble opinion, this is not one of them. If the hobby made me think this deeply and feel as paranoid as it appears that you do, I definitely would not be here. I hope you have a good day and remember, if you book an appointment, don't forget your tinfoil hat. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 LE has long suspected that Suzie Creamschmear has been operating a "den of prostitution" from her comfortable suburban home. Neighbors have complained of much traffic at all hours... ...A nosy neighbor starts taking notes. Records license plates and times. Turns the info over to the police... Plenty of busts have gone down in just this way. As for the cell phone records, GPS tracking, corroboration from review sites...that suggests a larger police operation. Maybe if Suzie is suspected to be part of an agency...less likely for an independent. But cops following up on neighbor complaints...you bet. Another good reason to stick to hotels. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 D) Wear a tinfoil hat to every appointment… Hey....you're laughing now.....but only because you don't know how goooood I look in tinfoil. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 if one were to continue hobbying, it would seem that one should ...stay at home and jerk off. Seriously, paranoid much? Local law enforcement is so seriously starved for funding, they sure as hell don't have the $$$ to do gps surveillance on some hobby dudes slipping in and out of hookers' apartments. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 ...stay at home and jerk off. Seriously, paranoid much? Local law enforcement is so seriously starved for funding, they sure as hell don't have the $$$ to do gps surveillance on some hobby dudes slipping in and out of hookers' apartments. yeah. I get it. I'm paranoid. Or maybe just careful. BTW, I find the contrast between your post and your sig line highly amusing. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 I would like to point out one interesting stat. My significant other has been hobbying for over 25 years, he has written many reviews, he has picked up hookers off of the street and the Internet, he has probably seen hundreds of girls and he has NEVER had an encounter with LE. Just food for thought. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 Interesting scenario - but I think that LE has other things to do - like looking out for trafficking(?) underage girls and all. Or guys browsing Colfax for street hookers. However, I was seeing someone at Denver Ladies a while back and found out when they busted them - it had to do with High Profile clients (like the judge they took down) and IRS issues. I found out they were filming clients going in and out of the location - I thought damm - I was going down, but never happened. That was real paranoid on my part. But it was an IRS sting overall and even the ladies that where there didnt get busted. There are a lot of scenarios and while you will always be looking over your shoulder, unless there is something bigger involved - it probably will not happen. And remember - be safe in how you hobby! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 Oh, and one other thing. He has never even taken the battery out of his phone once in those 25 years either...I would like to point out one interesting stat. My significant other has been hobbying for over 25 years, he has written many reviews, he has picked up hookers off of the street and the Internet, he has probably seen hundreds of girls and he has NEVER had an encounter with LE. Just food for thought. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 Interesting scenario - but I think that LE has other things to do - like looking out for trafficking(?) underage girls and all. Or guys browsing Colfax for street hookers. However, I was seeing someone at Denver Ladies a while back and found out when they busted them - it had to do with High Profile clients (like the judge they took down) and IRS issues. I found out they were filming clients going in and out of the location - I thought damm - I was going down, but never happened. That was real paranoid on my part. But it was an IRS sting overall and even the ladies that where there didnt get busted. There are a lot of scenarios and while you will always be looking over your shoulder, unless there is something bigger involved - it probably will not happen. And remember - be safe in how you hobby! some good points here, however while id like to think that local LE has better focus, there are units and departments that have been confronted for misappropriating grant money by sex worker advocacy groups and academic groups who were involved in the research. so instead of focusing on trafficking, were using the funds to bust consenting adults. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 some good points here, however while id like to think that local LE has better focus, there are units and departments that have been confronted for misappropriating grant money by sex worker advocacy groups and academic groups who were involved in the research. so instead of focusing on trafficking, were using the funds to bust consenting adults. I did not know that - but can see where this is going if they have the funding for that. I wonder if the officers that were busted at an AMP a while back where using those funds to get themselves off and unfortunately were caught in their own sting operation! Always have to wonder about sting operations going on? You never know where they will show up. Thanks for the insight! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 A scenario and question for you legal eagles. I'm no genius, but if I've thought of this. so have others. Or have I just watched too many episodes of 'NCIS?' LE has the license plates of the clients. They can then query the cellphone providers to determine who provides the clients service, and get their phone info. They can then verify by GPS records that the person in question was indeed at the location noted at the specific time. They have a written confession of services exchanged for money in the form of a public review. Sure, that could certainly happen . . . but it won't. That is a lot of resources to expend on a few piddly misdemeanor busts likely only to result in fines and probation. This sort of investigation is usually reserved for things like drug distribution or maybe a high profile homicide case. Time is money, time devoted to cracking down on some girl selling BJs out of a rental apartment could be used instead to focus on more serious felonies like robberies and auto theft. Now, if the nosy neighbor happened to be related to the mayor or the chief of police, things might be a little different. The thing you most need to worry about is a provider keeping your contact information in her unlocked smartphone, which is later lost, stolen, or seized as evidence. That is why it is good to use a cheap prepay for appointments, and never disclose your last name or where you work. Anyone can run a plate check at DMV, and if the physical address is accurate they can find you easily. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 21, 2012 Let's not spread paranoia. Seriously. I want to add...I am much more suspicious of a strange car parked in front of my own place, or strangers WALKING thru my neighborhood than people who drive up and go into a another home. Nothing pisses me off more than a guy who parks in front of someone elses place and walks to you. It's far worse IMO. Don't look so guilty and you won't be. There are MANY reasons why a person can have company/guests in their place, and as long as neither party admits to a money exchange, no one can do a damn thing to you. Hell, maybe the provider has a ligit business at home. Maybe she has several boyfriends. Maybe she is a swinger. None of that is illegal. It's no one's freaking business. And in general, people can fuck whoever they want, if you think about it. It's the actual exchange of money that is the problem. So as long as guys arn't stupid enough to admit to paying for anything, and girls arn't dumb enough to confess to accepting cash, then no one can prove crapola behind your closed doors. I can also add that if you choose professional providers, who don't have other issues such as drugs, etc...that helps too. Don't give them any other reason to have anything on you and you are ok. Go get a google number that's not in your name. OP....Smooch! I love you, but you are too worried. Relax Cutie Pie. it's Christmas time. You're wheels are turning too much. That's my rant of the day. Merry Christmas Everyone. Go be Naughty!!! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 Read the following article: http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/17/your-cellphone-is-spying-on-you A scenario and question for you legal eagles. I'm no genius, but if I've thought of this. so have others. Or have I just watched too many episodes of 'NCIS?' LE has long suspected that Suzie Creamschmear has been operating a "den of prostitution" from her comfortable suburban home. Neighbors have complained of much traffic at all hours. A nosy neighbor starts taking notes. Records license plates and times. Turns the info over to the police. Clients A, B, & C visit Suzie on Tuesday. They all write reviews. The reviews get posted on Wednesday. Wow....Suzie got three "fantastics." LE has the license plates of the clients. They can then query the cellphone providers to determine who provides the clients service, and get their phone info. They can then verify by GPS records that the person in question was indeed at the location noted at the specific time. They have a written confession of services exchanged for money in the form of a public review. Multiple clients are arrested, along with poor Suzie. Is this a problem? At the very least, if one were to continue hobbying, it would seem that one should leave all cellphones at home.....and never ever write a review. All of the reviews posted on this site are fiction/fantasy. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 OP....Smooch! I love you, but you are too worried. Relax Cutie Pie. it's Christmas time. You're wheels are turning too much!!! I agree! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 Let me start off by saying that, as a civil libertatian who is concerned about privacy rights, I would have thought that more folks on this site would have been interested in what appears to be a gross violation of rights that directly affects our activities here. Instead, the general opinion seems to be that we are well hidden in plain sight....much like the ark at the end of the 1st Indiana Jones movie. Furthermore, a consensus seems to have been reached: Paranoid much? Seriously, paranoid much? Sure, that could certainly happen . . . but it won't. Let's not spread paranoia......you are too worried. I agree! LOL. OK I give up. In honor of the consensus, I have changed my avatar to Barney Fife....that hyper-nervous, socially awkward, chest-puffing little deputy with a heart of gold from the Andy Griffith Show. I even look a bit like him. And like him....as the ladies will attest....I only have one "bullet" in my pocket. My New Years resolution: <raising right hand> I hereby swear to be less of a wimp. I will not jump at every shadow, will not see LEO behind every curtain, will not worry about hooker wars in other cities. I will sow my oats with wild abandon, gathering pleasure where I may. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 As the rest of us know....LE has to cut one from the heard every so often to keep the moral masses at bay...so I wanted let ya know how much I appreciate your new found confidence in wreckless abandon:p My New Years resolution: <raising right hand> I hereby swear to be less of a wimp. I will not jump at every shadow, will not see LEO behind every curtain, will not worry about hooker wars in other cities. I will sow my oats with wild abandon, gathering pleasure where I may. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 As the rest of us know....LE has to cut one from the heard every so often to keep the moral masses at bay...so I wanted let ya know how much I appreciate your new found confidence in wreckless abandon +1 The best way to flush out a sniper is send out an easy target. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 +1 The best way to flush out a sniper is send out an easy target. Alright you bastards. I'm not dead yet! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 Let me start off by saying that, as a civil libertatian who is concerned about privacy rights, I would have thought that more folks on this site would have been interested in what appears to be a gross violation of rights that directly affects our activities here. Instead, the general opinion seems to be that we are well hidden in plain sight....much like the ark at the end of the 1st Indiana Jones movie. I dream of a society where a chicken can cross the road without it's intentions being questioned. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 22, 2012 Here's a LEO you don't have to worry about. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 24, 2012 Read the following article: http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/17/your-cellphone-is-spying-on-you A scenario and question for you legal eagles. I'm no genius, but if I've thought of this. so have others. Or have I just watched too many episodes of 'NCIS?' LE has long suspected that Suzie Creamschmear has been operating a "den of prostitution" from her comfortable suburban home. Neighbors have complained of much traffic at all hours. A nosy neighbor starts taking notes. Records license plates and times. Turns the info over to the police. Clients A, B, & C visit Suzie on Tuesday. They all write reviews. The reviews get posted on Wednesday. Wow....Suzie got three "fantastics." LE has the license plates of the clients. They can then query the cellphone providers to determine who provides the clients service, and get their phone info. They can then verify by GPS records that the person in question was indeed at the location noted at the specific time. They have a written confession of services exchanged for money in the form of a public review. Multiple clients are arrested, along with poor Suzie. Is this a problem? At the very least, if one were to continue hobbying, it would seem that one should leave all cellphones at home.....and never ever write a review. LE's "suspicions" must rise to the level of reasonable and articulable suspicion, and if Suzie Creamschmear doesn't show her face how could anyone make a positive ID and link it to her ads and working persona? Traffic schmaffic, she could be selling used Broncos jerseys on Craigslist and would have traffic. There is something to be said for rotating hotel incalls, and for the very paranoid you may want to think about those providers. But then you'd be worried about hotels. IMO if you are seeing providers who are 25+ who live a clean healthy lifestyle, what two consenting adults do or don't do behind closed doors may be quote unquote illegal, but not worth the time or trouble for LE to get involved. Look at the cost v benefit: Suzie could afford a top attorney, her case would have counsel and cocounsel, it would be a three day jury trial, she would clog the court system and the jury would be deadlocked, do nullification, or there could always be a mistrial, and the state would not want to retry the case. Then, she could file civil suits - as could all parties who may have suffered damages- and the liability factor could get interesting. Here, if you want to be paranoid, google and Youtube have plenty to keep you occupied: P.S. If I was Suzie and somebody set out for his appt with me minus his cellphone, I would not see him because our communication could easily become a clusterf*ck if he got lost or something. I would tell him to chill and come and get laid so he can relieve his stress and stop projecting displacing and sublimating looking for LE and black helicopters 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 24, 2012 15 yard penalty for a late hit. We all have our phobias. I don't like spiders, either. However, I am working real hard on growing a pair. Today, at the mall, I looked a cop right in the eye. So there! However, I'm still unhappy at the gross violation of my privacy rights as outlined in the article. You should be, too. LE's "suspicions" must rise to the level of reasonable and articulable suspicion, and if Suzie Creamschmear doesn't show her face how could anyone make a positive ID and link it to her ads and working persona? Traffic schmaffic, she could be selling used Broncos jerseys on Craigslist and would have traffic. There is something to be said for rotating hotel incalls, and for the very paranoid you may want to think about those providers. But then you'd be worried about hotels. IMO if you are seeing providers who are 25+ who live a clean healthy lifestyle, what two consenting adults do or don't do behind closed doors may be quote unquote illegal, but not worth the time or trouble for LE to get involved. Look at the cost v benefit: Suzie could afford a top attorney, her case would have counsel and cocounsel, it would be a three day jury trial, she would clog the court system and the jury would be deadlocked, do nullification, or there could always be a mistrial, and the state would not want to retry the case. Then, she could file civil suits - as could all parties who may have suffered damages- and the liability factor could get interesting. Here, if you want to be paranoid, google and Youtube have plenty to keep you occupied: P.S. If I was Suzie and somebody set out for his appt with me minus his cellphone, I would not see him because our communication could easily become a clusterf*ck if he got lost or something. I would tell him to chill and come and get laid so he can relieve his stress and stop projecting displacing and sublimating looking for LE and black helicopters 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 24, 2012 As usual, I have to agree with 2Big...and I'm a "LegalEagle"! The type of survelliance (sp?) tactics you are describing are used for the following perps/suspected perps: 1) Terrorists 2) Narcotics traffickers 3) Firearms/explosive traffickers 4) OC (Organized Crime) Chieftains and top lieutenants.......and I'm sure there a few categories of perps I have left out. Local LE does not have the resources to do what you are suggesting when it comes to Suzie. Federal Law Enforcement is interested in the categories I have mentioned above. Now, don't throw caution to the winds-whatever you do, do safely, carefully, and discreetly. A "hobby phone" that you purchase with pre-paid minutes (or something like that) is not a bad idea. Neither is a Yahoo or Hotmail account for your "hobby mail". But as someone who has dealt with both local and federal law enforcement....I think I have a good idea of what their priorities are. Sincerely, LegalEagle 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 24, 2012 Thank you, sir. As usual, I have to agree with 2Big...and I'm a "LegalEagle"! The type of survelliance (sp?) tactics you are describing are used for the following perps/suspected perps: 1) Terrorists 2) Narcotics traffickers 3) Firearms/explosive traffickers 4) OC (Organized Crime) Chieftains and top lieutenants.......and I'm sure there a few categories of perps I have left out. Local LE does not have the resources to do what you are suggesting when it comes to Suzie. Federal Law Enforcement is interested in the categories I have mentioned above. Now, don't throw caution to the winds-whatever you do, do safely, carefully, and discreetly. A "hobby phone" that you purchase with pre-paid minutes (or something like that) is not a bad idea. Neither is a Yahoo or Hotmail account for your "hobby mail". But as someone who has dealt with both local and federal law enforcement....I think I have a good idea of what their priorities are. Sincerely, LegalEagle 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 27, 2012 I would like to point out one interesting stat. My significant other has been hobbying for over 25 years, he has written many reviews, he has picked up hookers off of the street and the Internet, he has probably seen hundreds of girls and he has NEVER had an encounter with LE. Just food for thought. That's called luck. His process is risky and should not be used as an example of behavior worth replicating. Hobbying is a misdemeanor, which means that they need to catch you in the act to prosecute. Like 2big said, LE budgets are tight and they have more significant problems to deal with. Every hobby bust requires a sting operation and that's expensive for a crime that in most jurisdictions results in a sub $2,000 fine and no jail time for first time offenders. In a time of low tax revenues, the Feds are rightly going after businesses that are in the public eye that fail to pay taxes. Agencies are easy targets. And the government views tax evasion as a serious crime. Now is outing a public person another motivation for the Feds? Sure. I beleive that the Nacchio case was the driving force behind the DP bust. But if you notice over the years, most of the people who have been outed by the Feds are government employees--all of whom were quite careless in protecting their identities (actual phone numbers, outcalls to their homes, wire transfers to agencies, etc.). The average joe hasn't been impacted. The desert divas case in AZ is a key exception, but the DA who pushed to have the black book released ended up getting disbarred for his overzealous methods. So I view that as an aberration. OP, please do your research before spreading paranoid opinions. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 27, 2012 That's called luck. His process is risky and should not be used as an example of behavior worth replicating. Well I don't think it is. I shall run a poll to find out! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
